Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

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Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#1  Postby Rumraket » Feb 19, 2014 10:45 am

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/01/28/william-lane-craig-debate/

William Lane Craig Debate
Posted on January 28, 2014 by Sean Carroll
Last week I participated in a dialogue with Princeton philosopher Hans Halvorson, sponsored by the Veritas Forum here at Caltech. We were talking about “physics and philosophy,” but the primary issue was theism and naturalism — Hans’s research specialty is philosophy of physics, especially quantum field theory, but he’s also a theist and often writes about science and religion. It was a fruitful discussion (I like to think), as we ended up agreeing about many points, even though we started from very different premises. He agreed with me, for example, that purported fine-tuning of cosmological parameters isn’t a very good argument in favor of the existence of an intelligent designer.

Next month I’ll be doing something related, although under quite different circumstances. On February 21 I’ll be debating William Lane Craig at the Greer-Heard Forum, an event sponsored by the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. It will actually be a two-day event; a debate between Craig and me on Friday night, and follow-ups on Saturday from other speakers — Tim Maudlin and Alex Rosenberg for Team Naturalism, Robin Collins and James Sinclair for Team Theism. Registration is open! I believe the whole thing will be streamed live online, and it will certainly be recorded for posterity.

...

He's at least familiar with Craig, and more philosophically well-versed than Krauss, so he must have something prepared for some of the gibberish? Will be interesting to see how Carroll does.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#2  Postby Matthew Shute » Feb 19, 2014 12:28 pm

More publicity for that lying weasle and genocide-excuser, Craig, though. :sigh:
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#3  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Feb 19, 2014 12:33 pm

Yes but I think this is a buggered if you do buggered if you don't. If you debate Craig you give him a platform and an audience to deceive. If you don't he tells his current audience that he has one by default and keeps the flock thinking how great he is.

Personally I would rather he didn't get an audience unless it could be almost 100% guaranteed that Craig is going to get smacked down so fucking hard even his deluded followers can see it. And that is some mean feat.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#4  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Feb 19, 2014 2:40 pm

He has some good arguments against the existence of supernatural phenomena, maybe he (Carroll) is just looking for a good platform to present them.

edit: may as well quote the whole post in the OP as his justification for taking part is worth a quick read.

Just so we’re clear: my goal here is not to win the debate. It is to say things that are true and understandable, and establish a reasonable case for naturalism, especially focusing on issues related to cosmology. I will prepare, of course, but I’m not going to watch hours of previous debates, nor buy a small library of books so that I may anticipate all of WLC’s possible responses to my arguments. I have a day job, and frankly I’d rather spend my time thinking about quantum cosmology than about the cosmological argument for God’s existence. If this event were the Final Contest to Establish the One True Worldview, I might drop everything to focus on it. But it’s not; it’s an opportunity to make my point of view a little clearer to a group of people who don’t already agree with me.

The guy is a very polished public speaker, and he is certainly an expert in this format. But I have the overwhelming advantage of being right. If I thought WLC were right, I would just change my views. Since I don’t, my goal is to explain why not, as clearly as possible.

The general consensus in some corners seems to be that I will be crushed. I guess we shall see.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#5  Postby Lockon-Stratos » Feb 21, 2014 3:45 am

By now the most irritating thing about these debates for me are the smug followers of WLC who embarrassingly conflate winning a debate with demonstrating that their ideas are true.
"The difference between physics and metaphysics. . . is not that the practitioners of one are smarter than the practitioners of the other. The difference is that the metaphysicist has no laboratory."- Carl Sagan
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#6  Postby Steve » Feb 21, 2014 4:10 am

Matthew Shute wrote:More publicity for that lying weasle and genocide-excuser, Craig, though. :sigh:


He should just point and chuckle, then ignore everything Craig has said and delivered prepared remarks exposing Craig as a charlatan. Mercilessly.

That is what they do, so it must be OK.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#7  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 21, 2014 9:12 am

Steve wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:More publicity for that lying weasle and genocide-excuser, Craig, though. :sigh:


He should just point and chuckle, then ignore everything Craig has said and delivered prepared remarks exposing Craig as a charlatan. Mercilessly.

That is what they do, so it must be OK.

:this:

Above all else he should completely ignore Craigs' Gish Gallops and "You must prove strawmen X, Y and Z" bollocks.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#8  Postby Scar » Feb 21, 2014 9:42 am

Lockon-Stratos wrote:By now the most irritating thing about these debates for me are the smug followers of WLC who embarrassingly conflate winning a debate with demonstrating that their ideas are true.


And who lie about who's won a debate and what it means to win a debate (such as Mick).
Last edited by Scar on Feb 21, 2014 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#9  Postby Animavore » Feb 21, 2014 10:03 am

I don't understand the concept of a 'truth' being settled by a debate. I've heard of holocaust deniers winning debates FFS.

There's such a difference with reading science and religion. When you read a science book the author points out evidence. There's usually figures and pictures. They explain what they figures are, what they mean and what they point to. They explain what we know and how we know it, often with demonstration.
Now you read a religious book and they're telling you what they already believe and why it's true. They mention an "empty tomb" which they can't point to, and doesn't necessarily infer their belief. They say their hero must be a "lord, lunatic or liar" and argue the former, and totally ignore the elephant in the room, he is misquoted and distorted by word of mouth. They give philosophical justifications which fail at the first premise because they are making erroneous assumptions about beginnings in the real world.

In the world of ideas there should be no doubt about who is putting the work in, who is making the effort, discovering, examining, investigating, testing, inquiring and probing and who is sitting on their arse claiming to already know all the answers and using minimal effort to justify their position and abuse the hard work of those who have bothered.

It takes some effort on your own part to read up and discover and understand the wonders people of science have uncovered for you. It takes a random conversation on the back of a bus with a charismatic stranger to discover all the 'truths' religion has to offer and be filled with conviction. It's no wonder the latter is so appealing to many, and less of a wonder why they are so big-headed about it.
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#10  Postby Rumraket » Feb 21, 2014 11:25 am

Animavore wrote:I don't understand the concept of a 'truth' being settled by a debate. I've heard of holocaust deniers winning debates FFS.

There's such a difference with reading science and religion. When you read a science book the author points out evidence. There's usually figures and pictures. They explain what they figures are, what they mean and what they point to. They explain what we know and how we know it, often with demonstration.
Now you read a religious book and they're telling you what they already believe and why it's true. They mention an "empty tomb" which they can't point to, and doesn't necessarily infer their belief. They say their hero must be a "lord, lunatic or liar" and argue the former, and totally ignore the elephant in the room, he is misquoted and distorted by word of mouth. They give philosophical justifications which fail at the first premise because they are making erroneous assumptions about beginnings in the real world.

In the world of ideas there should be no doubt about who is putting the work in, who is making the effort, discovering, examining, investigating, testing, inquiring and probing and who is sitting on their arse claiming to already know all the answers and using minimal effort to justify their position and abuse the hard work of those who have bothered.

It takes some effort on your own part to read up and discover and understand the wonders people of science have uncovered for you. It takes a random conversation on the back of a bus with a charismatic stranger to discover all the 'truths' religion has to offer and be filled with conviction. It's no wonder the latter is so appealing to many, and less of a wonder why they are so big-headed about it.

Agreed 100%. The religion story puts you front and center, just like you always wanted. And you don't even have to do anything, just believe, then all the answers come to you in prepared book format.
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WLC Vs Sean Carrol Debate Starting soon

#11  Postby Bribase » Feb 21, 2014 4:56 pm

Link to the live stream

Fun starts at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific. (Corrected from earlier goof.) The format is an opening 20-minute speech by WLC and me (in that order), followed by 12-minute rebuttals, and then 8-minute closing statements, and concluding with 40 minutes of audience questions. Official Twitter hashtag is #GreerHeard14, which I believe you can use to submit questions for the Q&A. I wouldn’t lie to you: I think this will be worth watching.

I can't find the actual debate topic but you know the drill. Fine tuning, something rather than nothing, KCA blah blah blah. Might be fun.
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Re: WLC Vs Sean Carrol Debate Starting soon

#12  Postby Bribase » Feb 21, 2014 7:58 pm

Just in case anyone in the UK wants to watch, it begins at 1am. Don't trust the timer, the timer was sent to deceive us!
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Re: WLC Vs Sean Carrol Debate Starting soon

#13  Postby Skinny Puppy » Feb 21, 2014 8:09 pm

WLC: God exists because...

Blah, blah, blah............................................................................

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Re: WLC Vs Sean Carrol Debate Starting soon

#14  Postby Pulsar » Feb 22, 2014 1:15 am

Science is a dialogue between the free play of ideas — theorizing — and the harsh constraints of empiricism — experimental data. Theories are a lever, data are a fulcrum, and between them we can move the world. - Sean Carroll
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#15  Postby Rumraket » Feb 22, 2014 2:40 am

Holy fucking shit, Carroll is being brilliant. Craig is being annihilated. This is probably the most unambigous loss of Craig's I've ever seen. :shock:
"When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim it is invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing." - Anonymous
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#16  Postby Pulsar » Feb 22, 2014 2:59 am

Rumraket wrote:Holy fucking shit, Carroll is being brilliant. Craig is being annihilated. This is probably the most unambigous loss of Craig's I've ever seen. :shock:

Absolutely, Carroll destroyed him. I don't think there's anyone more capable to debate Craig than Sean. He's an expert cosmologist and an experienced speaker. He cuts through Craig's bullshit with ease.

My favourite moment was when Craig mentioned the Borde-Vilenkin-Guth Theorem as evidence for a universe with a beginning, and Carroll responded: "No, it isn't. I just asked Guth for a response, and he thinks the universe probably didn't have a beginning. Look, here he is on my laptop." :lol:
Science is a dialogue between the free play of ideas — theorizing — and the harsh constraints of empiricism — experimental data. Theories are a lever, data are a fulcrum, and between them we can move the world. - Sean Carroll
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#17  Postby Steve » Feb 22, 2014 3:01 am

Will there be a youtube or something of this?
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#18  Postby Pulsar » Feb 22, 2014 3:03 am

Steve wrote:Will there be a youtube or something of this?

Probably. You can watch the live stream here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FifVgGL_cIY
The Q&A starts now.
Science is a dialogue between the free play of ideas — theorizing — and the harsh constraints of empiricism — experimental data. Theories are a lever, data are a fulcrum, and between them we can move the world. - Sean Carroll
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Re: Sean Carroll to debate the Craigbot

#19  Postby Rumraket » Feb 22, 2014 3:04 am

Pulsar wrote:
Rumraket wrote:Holy fucking shit, Carroll is being brilliant. Craig is being annihilated. This is probably the most unambigous loss of Craig's I've ever seen. :shock:

Absolutely, Carroll destroyed him. I don't think there's anyone more capable to debate Craig than Sean. He's an expert cosmologist and an experienced speaker. He cuts through Craig's bullshit with ease.

My favourite moment was when Craig mentioned the Borde-Vilenkin-Guth Theorem as evidence for a universe with a beginning, and Carroll responded: "No, it isn't. I just asked Guth for a response, and he thinks the universe probably didn't have a beginning. Look, here he is on my laptop." :lol:

I literally laughed out loud.

Carroll is impressively clear and simple, doesn't waste any time on diversions.
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Re: WLC Vs Sean Carrol Debate Starting soon

#20  Postby Rumraket » Feb 22, 2014 4:12 am

"When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim it is invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing." - Anonymous
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