Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron
T. Kari wrote:I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'd say that if you phrase it correctly, then there really should be no confusion.
I.e. "If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby". It's quite clear that the hobby part is separate from the religion part and is only used as an analogy.
If you use it a la "atheism is to religion as not collecting stamps is to stamp collecting" then you're getting dangerously close to comparing religion to collecting stamps of course... And of course we could try and find a more negative comparison such as "if atheism is a religion, then not molesting children is a criminal offense" but you will notice that you can quickly put a spin on that as well.
hackenslash wrote:Indeed. The analogy is completely valid. It isn't atheism and stamp collecting that's being compared, and nor is it religion and hobbies. The comparison is being made between the descriptions, and it works perfectly.
It's like a finger, pointing to the sky. Don't watch the finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory - Bruce Lee
sepermeru wrote:hackenslash wrote:Indeed. The analogy is completely valid. It isn't atheism and stamp collecting that's being compared, and nor is it religion and hobbies. The comparison is being made between the descriptions, and it works perfectly.
It's like a finger, pointing to the sky. Don't watch the finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory - Bruce Lee
I completely disagree, because an analogy is supposed to compare two things which are qualitatively alike. My whole point is that the description proposed for atheism is wrong as a general truth. It is NOT true for everyone that being an atheist is nothing more than not believing in God, because in a culture where everyone believes in God, to take that position is, in fact, a significant and meaningful thing in a way that a mere absence of belief in something that has no other implications is not. The implications of atheism are so vast that to say you can describe being an atheist in general as just not being something else is to mis-identify what atheism really is, all the way down. Now, I know that for some people, "nothing more than not believing in God" feels like an accurate description of their atheism. But to present that as the whole story, as the only possible inherent description, is false.
There is a difference between saying "I do not collect stamps" and saying "I do not believe the reason people use to kill and hurt each other all the time is valid". One is a personal preference with no ethical implications possible, and the other is so deeply connected with ethical issues it can only be separated by personal decree, by an individual declaring that they choose to disengage from the ethical implications. Any description which claims that atheism can be described merely as saying "I do not collect stamps" is wrong because it is assuming that atheism exists in a vacuum where any one position a person takes is ethically equal to any other. If collecting stamps led to the deaths of millions of people, then not collecting stamps wouldn't be just not collecting stamps either. The analogy is meant to suggest that people who claim there is more to atheism inherently than just not believing in God are incorrect, but clearly there is, because the world exists and has qualities which can't be ignored.
In a way, my point is partly that without intending to, this analogy actually gives the impression that belief in God is perfectly valid and it's all just a matter of whether you do or not. Some people might feel that way, but not this atheist, and not, I think, a significant enough number of atheists that to deploy this analogy as a general truth is misleading. And really, if your atheism is based on rationality, then it's impossible to claim that it really is valid to believe in God; the most you can do is say that you don't choose to engage the question.
hackenslash wrote:
This is drivel. The reason that the definition of atheism as absence of belief in a deity is rigorous is because it's the only definition that applies to the full set. Nobody says it's the only possible definition, just that it's the only rigorous one. Anything else is extraneous to the definition.
Further, you seem to be completely missing the point of the analogy. It doesn't matter that stamp collecting is nothing like religion, or that belief is nothing like a hobby. The analogy is valid because the comparison being drawn is valid. In other words, it is saying what these things are not. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Atheism is not a belief.
Again, you're reading far too much into it. Nobody is claiming that religion is a hobby. Which part of this are you struggling with here/
Absolute hogwash. Tha analogy says nothing whatsoever on that point. The analogy is only saying what atheism is NOT. If you read anything more than that into the analogy, that is not a failing of the analogy, but of your understanding of what is being analogised.
I really think you need to think hard about what is, and what is not, being illustrated by this analogy. The analogy is valid, and your objections amount to no more than a non-sequitur.
sepermeru wrote:You have every right to call my opinion "drivel", but I wish you would not. I feel it's a very hostile word that doesn't further this discussion, because it's very dismissive of what is clearly a position I have thought about a lot and attempted to defend. You may think I am wrong, and you may be correct, but I don't believe "drivel" is a fair or accurate description of what I've said. Again, I know you have every right to say it if you like, but I do object, and I would not characterize your position, even though I don't agree with it at all, as drivel.
Yes it is. It is a belief that one of the major reasons people use to kill and torture others is invalid or cannot be proved. Again, an atheist may choose to disregard that inevitable implication of atheism, but that doesn't mean the implication doesn't exist. Logically speaking, you are right, but my position is that approaching the question from that direction is ignoring the reality of the situation.
Once again, I would like to ask you to refrain from personalizing my position. I'm not "struggling" with any part of it. Do any of my comments come across as someone who is "struggling" to understand, really? Or are you just trying to discredit my argument by implying I'm just too dim to understand yours? I do understand your argument, I just disagree. Surely you agree that is possible?
Anyway, as I clearly acknowledged in my post, I'm aware that people do not INTEND to claim religion is a hobby. As I said, my problem is that it does so inadvertently by implication.
An analogy is not just any old words strung together in a way that sounds right, where what the speaker meant is more important than the words. An analogy should be accurate or else it is flawed.
I would say that I really think you need to think hard about whether your approach to this discussion is excessively personalized and condescending, but I don't believe in giving people personal advice when I don't actually know them at all.
As far as I can tell, your argument is "The analogy is valid because nobody meant it that way, so any other interpretation is drivel, hogwash, ignorant, underthought and non-sequitur". But you're not actually refuting my points. I acknowledge that it was intended to illustrate a single aspect of atheism with no reference to any other. I state that doing that is over simplistic and ignores the full reality of the situation. Basically, if you say it is valid to focus in on only one small aspect of atheism for the purposes of an analogy which, if you can't read minds, literally reads as a definition of atheism full stop even when not intended to, I disagree.
anthroban wrote:Atheism is to religion as not stamp collecting is to hobbies.
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'
anthroban wrote:Remember kids - analogies compare relations between things, NOT THE THINGS THEMSELVES.
Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest