Theological degrees from reputable secular universities.

quas · #1 by **quas** » Feb 01, 2012 12:09 pm

In a recent debate with a Christian, I found myself stumped. He throws out the fact that reputable secular universities actually thought theology. He cited Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Princeton and many other famous universities around the world (but I could only recall the British ones) in his examples. We all know that theology vis-à-vis religion is all bullshit, so why do reputable secular hand out degrees in theology and thus lend credence to this practice of essentially nothing more than justifying irrational beliefs so that a Christian can flaunt this fact tauntingly to an atheist? If you can learn about Jesus In Oxford, then theoretically you should be able to do likewise with the FSM? Can I get a degree in FSM-ism from Oxford?

chairman bill · #2 by **chairman bill** » Feb 01, 2012 12:23 pm

quas wrote:... Can I get a degree in FSM-ism from Oxford?

If you can find the literature, I'm sure you could do a MPhil / PhD.

Universities have traditionally offered theology (aka 'divinity') because once upon a time, that was almost their raison d'etre, and as there continues to be a demand for the courses, they carry on offering them.

Spearthrower · #3 by **Spearthrower** » Feb 01, 2012 12:27 pm

quas wrote:In a recent debate with a Christian, I found myself stumped. He throws out the fact that reputable secular universities actually thought theology. He cited Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Princeton and many other famous universities around the world (but I could only recall the British ones) in his examples. We all know that theology vis-à-vis religion is all bullshit, so why do reputable secular hand out degrees in theology and thus lend credence to what's essentially nothing more than justifying irrational beliefs so that a Christian can flaunt this fact tauntingly to an atheist? If you can learn about Jesus In Oxford, then theoretically you should be able to do likewise with the FSM? Can I get a degree in FSM-ism from Oxford?

First of all, historically universities were religious institutions as much as educational ones. Theology would have been the most important topic to study, and would have been the most reputable type of qualification. My university was the first non-religiously affiliated university in the UK - unsurprisingly it was also the first to allow female students and foreigners! :naughty2:

Secondly, because theology doesn't necessarily infer religious belief. Certainly, there is usually the option for ministerial training, but it is entirely possible to study Theology as a purely academic discipline. If you consider religion and deity worship to be an interesting phenomenon, you can study the history, anthropology, archaeology, literature etc of the target religion(s) as a course in its own right, dipping into the courses offered by other departments.

But these 2 points are really minor with respect to your question. The notion of being able to engage in 'reasoned' discussion about the divine is quite absurd. You can think of it as a vestigial element of our culture's earlier religious dominated society.

Thomas Paine wrote:The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing.

quas · #4 by **quas** » Feb 01, 2012 12:42 pm

chairman bill wrote:
quas wrote:... Can I get a degree in FSM-ism from Oxford?

If you can find the literature, I'm sure you could do a MPhil / PhD.

Universities have traditionally offered theology (aka 'divinity') because once upon a time, that was almost their raison d'etre, and as there continues to be a demand for the courses, they carry on offering them.

Someone should make the FSM holy texts. I can see that as being more fun than the 1,000,000 god project. :dance:

LarianLeQuella · #5 by **LarianLeQuella** » Feb 01, 2012 4:51 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Thomas Paine wrote:The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing.

that needs to go in my random quote sig generator!

quas wrote:Someone should make the FSM holy texts. I can see that as being more fun than the 1,000,000 god project.

Already done.

Byron · #6 by **Byron** » Feb 01, 2012 6:06 pm

"Should universities teach theology?" rests on two sub-questions:-

"What are universities for?" Beyond frat parties, to teach theoretical or professional disciplines in a rigorous and controlled way, and (often, not always) to conduct original research into said disciplines.
"Is theology reasonably classed as an academic discipline?" It's theoretical and professional, is taught in a rigorous and controlled way, and proceeds according to propositions that are examined by academic peers. It's not empirical in the way science is, but then, nor is literary criticism, or philosophy.

If you could frame the :fsm2:

in like fashion, you could teach that, too!

Universities aren't there solely to validate falsifiable positions, so theology isn't automatically excluded, nor is its study a sign of empirical endorsement. This confusion is what led Dawkins into his daffy "fairy-ology" snarking. (Which also, I suspect, helped burn any bridges he may have had with his colleagues in the theology faculty.)

logical bob · #7 by **logical bob** » Feb 01, 2012 6:16 pm

You need to appreciate that a degree in theology is not a degree in Christianity. Here are the research centres in the theology department at Oxford. I don't think there's much there that an atheist couldn't participate in without difficulty.

Byron · #8 by **Byron** » Feb 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Yup.

In addition to abstract god-talk, theology departments fund a lot of useful research into areas like archeology, history, textual criticism, linguistics, comparative-religion, ethics, etc. There's a good argument that they should separate into religious studies and straight theology, but even where they have, the roots of much useful research lie in theology.

Heck, atheists have a lot to thank theology for. The textual criticism which undermined orthodox Christian biblical claims was developed in Tübingen university!

Paul G · #9 by **Paul G** » Feb 08, 2012 12:31 pm

Think of a theology degree as a study of the history of theological thought.

Zwaarddijk · **#10** by **Zwaarddijk** » Feb 08, 2012 12:52 pm

I figure a lot of people when thinking of what theological studies of the :fsm2:

would be among the lines of counting noodly appendages and meat-balls, etc.

This is far from it - :fsm2:

-studies would study what gave rise to the idea of it, the behaviors of the adherents and their mental models regarding behavior, the sociological situation in which it developed and the language games involved when discussing it. These are topics that are of some value, and the reason why theology isn't easily conflatable with, say, the study of sociology or literature is that it is rather cross-disciplinary.

Paul G · **#11** by **Paul G** » Feb 08, 2012 12:56 pm

Not studied Sociology then?

Zwaarddijk · **#12** by **Zwaarddijk** » Feb 08, 2012 12:58 pm

Paul G wrote:Not studied Sociology then?

Obviously sociology is cross-disciplinary as well. But different slices of the scholarly cake are needed in that discipline, and different questions are probably seen as interesting.

Matt_B · **#13** by **Matt_B** » Feb 08, 2012 1:54 pm

Research has obviously shifted considerably in recent decades from a narrow focus on Christianity as some sort of privileged religion to one that considers other belief systems on a more-or-less neutral footing, and that's definitely something to be encouraged.

The one thing that I'd think is holding the subject back is the rather ridiculous and outmoded name, although I dare say that "Divinity" used at Cambridge is even worse. Still, ditch that, and start calling it Religious Studies - or something similarly appropriate to what it actually is - and it might gain a little more respect.

Zwaarddijk · **#14** by **Zwaarddijk** » Feb 08, 2012 2:01 pm

Matt_B wrote:Research has obviously shifted considerably in recent decades from a narrow focus on Christianity as some sort of privileged religion to one that considers other belief systems on a more-or-less neutral footing, and that's definitely something to be encouraged.

The one thing that I'd think is holding the subject back is the rather ridiculous and outmoded name, although I dare say that "Divinity" used at Cambridge is even worse. Still, ditch that, and start calling it Religious Studies - or something similarly appropriate to what it actually is - and it might gain a little more respect.

Just like we should ditch the designation "psychology", because no one really studies the "soul" in earnest seriousness these days.

katja z · **#15** by **katja z** » Feb 08, 2012 2:20 pm

logical bob wrote:You need to appreciate that a degree in theology is not a degree in Christianity.

Depends on where you are. I've recently had a look at what the Faculty of Theology at my university has to offer and a degree in Christianity is exactly what it is ... more precisely, a degree in Catholicism. :roll:

Matt_B · **#16** by **Matt_B** » Feb 08, 2012 3:01 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:Just like we should ditch the designation "psychology", because no one really studies the "soul" in earnest seriousness these days.

If "psyche" and "soul" hadn't become detached in modern usage you might have a point but, until you can do a similar job with "theos" and "god," theology is going to suffer from it.

DaveScriv · **#17** by **DaveScriv** » Feb 08, 2012 3:13 pm

I've heard that in recent decades many students who were Christians when they started their degree course in Theology/Divinity were atheists by the time they graduated.
A bit like those atheists who say reading the Bible helped them become atheists, only much more so, with all that in depth study of the origins of Biblical texts.

Zwaarddijk · **#18** by **Zwaarddijk** » Feb 08, 2012 3:17 pm

DaveScriv wrote:I've heard that in recent decades many students who were Christians when they started their degree course in Theology/Divinity were atheists by the time they graduated.
A bit like those atheists who say reading the Bible helped them become atheists, only much more so, with all that in depth study of the origins of Biblical texts.

Several Christian groups are actively hostile to theological studies at university level for this very reason. Some conservative groups in various churches where the clergy have to have a master's degree in theology want their churches to start having their own seminaries again so their doctrines can be kept intact, etc. And churches that don't have that requirement for their clergymen generally consider students of theology even among their own ranks with suspicion.

Ian Tattum · **#19** by **Ian Tattum** » Feb 08, 2012 3:18 pm

Matt_B wrote:Research has obviously shifted considerably in recent decades from a narrow focus on Christianity as some sort of privileged religion to one that considers other belief systems on a more-or-less neutral footing, and that's definitely something to be encouraged.

The one thing that I'd think is holding the subject back is the rather ridiculous and outmoded name, although I dare say that "Divinity" used at Cambridge is even worse. Still, ditch that, and start calling it Religious Studies - or something similarly appropriate to what it actually is - and it might gain a little more respect.

Last time I dropped into the Divinity Faculty in Cambridge I noticed that the named academics were teaching everything from Biblical Studies to Hinduism and the Philosophy of Religion. A substantial component of the theology degree I was awarded there was actually undertaken in the English Literature department.

Matt_B · **#20** by **Matt_B** » Feb 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:Last time I dropped into the Divinity Faculty in Cambridge I noticed that the named academics were teaching everything from Biblical Studies to Hinduism and the Philosophy of Religion. A substantial component of the theology degree I was awarded there was actually undertaken in the English Literature department.

I've no disagreements there. My point is only that they should drop the, quite frankly silly, name.