There's no such thing as an atheist baby

as silly as assuming a default language or nationality

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#1  Postby Aca » Jun 12, 2014 6:43 pm

Richard Dawkins' implication that babies have a default theological position of atheism is as silly as assuming a default language or nationality

Some Muslims will never speak of "converts" but only "reverts" because they believe that everyone is born a Muslim, even if some babies have this truth hidden from them by their parents who tell them they're Christians or atheists. And there's a style of atheist rhetoric that makes exactly the same point. To take two random examples from my recent Twitter stream: Joan Smith wrote: "I'm not convinced there are Muslim or Christian children. They have religious parents, but should be able to decide when they grow up." And Richard Dawkins wrote: "When you say X is the fastest growing religion, all you mean is that X people have babies at the fastest rate. But babies have no religion."

But there are no atheist babies, and certainly no agnostic ones. This is for two reasons. The first is that if we're going to be consistent, and to demand that babies only be ascribed identities that they themselves embrace, there are no German, British or Chinese children either. There are simply the children of German and English and Chinese parents, who will in due course learn the habits and the rules of the cultures around them and grow into their parents' language, nationality, food habits – and religious opinions. The way in which they express these will become more subtle and more interesting as they grow up – or at least we can hope it will – but the fact remains that babies are entirely anchored in the world by their parents.



continues http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ?CMP=fb_ot
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#2  Postby Beatsong » Jun 12, 2014 7:51 pm



Does it continue any better than that? Because at is stands I'm thinking I could never forgive myself for wasting the time necessary to read such drivel.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#3  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jun 12, 2014 8:13 pm

Theistically inclined columnist displays complete lack of understanding of what it means to not have a belief.

News at 11:00.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#4  Postby laklak » Jun 12, 2014 8:14 pm

Atheist babies would be cannibals.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 12, 2014 8:17 pm

:facepalm:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#6  Postby theropod » Jun 12, 2014 8:21 pm

Whhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh!

See, this is another attempt to dissolve the right of a woman to self determination and reproductive freedom.

"If dem babees waht ain't bean burned yeht ain't sole-less atheists'es an der really iz a Jebus/Y'Alla/Who-the-fuck-ever beliefers momi and dada iz maks dem own two. You'z jizt bean reeligion-Ophoobeeack hait filed babee killerz. Die youf ferkin' atheists'es, 'n' 'member tah honk if ur safed, 'clause {insert deity here} loafs al'y'all! Bless der widdl harts.

(with arms open wide)

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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#7  Postby quisquose » Jun 12, 2014 8:24 pm

What a load of nonsense that article is. Andrew Brown's religion seems to be Antidawkinsm.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#8  Postby chairman bill » Jun 12, 2014 8:27 pm

Andrew Brown isn't a theist, but he's one of those atheists who wants the respect of the theistic crowd, to be thought of as a more in-depth thinker than those 'orrible militant atheists. Trouble is, he's a bit stupid, and it clearly shows.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#9  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jun 12, 2014 8:48 pm

chairman bill wrote:Andrew Brown isn't a theist, but he's one of those atheists who wants the respect of the theistic crowd, to be thought of as a more in-depth thinker than those 'orrible militant atheists. Trouble is, he's a bit stupid, and it clearly shows.


Well he fucked that up.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#10  Postby Arnold Layne » Jun 12, 2014 8:59 pm

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "Andrew Brown is a tosser."
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#11  Postby tolman » Jun 12, 2014 10:05 pm

chairman bill wrote:Andrew Brown isn't a theist, but he's one of those atheists who wants the respect of the theistic crowd, to be thought of as a more in-depth thinker than those 'orrible militant atheists.

I just assumed he was someone who wanted to get paid by a newspaper, and was writing accordingly.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#12  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jun 12, 2014 10:05 pm

From the link:
The first is that if we're going to be consistent, and to demand that babies only be ascribed identities that they themselves embrace, there are no German, British or Chinese children either. There are simply the children of German and English and Chinese parents, who will in due course learn the habits and the rules of the cultures around them and grow into their parents' language, nationality, food habits – and religious opinions.


Erm..... Unless you're an emigrant/immigrant (depending upon the frame of reference) you don't get to "grow into" your nationality. Citizenship is attributed to you the moment you are born, by virtue of where you are born. This attempt at comparison is thus laughable and void.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#13  Postby igorfrankensteen » Jun 12, 2014 10:44 pm

I still remember my first conscious thought, upon opening my eyes after birth.

"Geez, I must be late. Everyone else is already dressed and ready to go."

Does that mean I was born a Presbyterian, or a Zoroastrianistic Rastafari Quaker? I'm sure I must be one or the other.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#14  Postby Thommo » Jun 12, 2014 11:15 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:From the link:
The first is that if we're going to be consistent, and to demand that babies only be ascribed identities that they themselves embrace, there are no German, British or Chinese children either. There are simply the children of German and English and Chinese parents, who will in due course learn the habits and the rules of the cultures around them and grow into their parents' language, nationality, food habits – and religious opinions.


Erm..... Unless you're an emigrant/immigrant (depending upon the frame of reference) you don't get to "grow into" your nationality. Citizenship is attributed to you the moment you are born, by virtue of where you are born. This attempt at comparison is thus laughable and void.


Well said, I also wanted to comment on his using something that is not learned but determined by birth to illustrate the exact opposite.

I also found it particularly bizarre that he objected to Dawkins choice of language, but then quotes Dawkins as not having used that language:-
And Richard Dawkins wrote: "When you say X is the fastest growing religion, all you mean is that X people have babies at the fastest rate. But babies have no religion."

What kind of fuckwit argues with that? Does he seriously want to pretend that babies have thought through the issues and concluded there must be a God?
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#15  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 12, 2014 11:29 pm

I'm pretty sure he's just arguing babies haven't consciously rejected the notion of god either because they're not aware of it. Babies are only atheists in the sense they don't know or understand the concept of god so obviously can't believe in such.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#16  Postby theropod » Jun 12, 2014 11:35 pm

So, babies don't believe in anything, they're agnostic by ignorance? Sounds more reasonable.

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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#17  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Jun 13, 2014 12:03 am

theropod wrote:So, babies don't believe in anything, they're agnostic by ignorance? Sounds more reasonable.

RS

Precisely. And, when they've gotten old enough, and been exposed to a few god concepts, they have the option of deciding they're atheist by ignorance. Which is to say, they are ignorant of the existence of any evidence for a god, nobody's forthcoming with any, and so they're atheists. ;)
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#18  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jun 13, 2014 12:26 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I'm pretty sure he's just arguing babies haven't consciously rejected the notion of god either because they're not aware of it. Babies are only atheists in the sense they don't know or understand the concept of god so obviously can't believe in such.


Which wasn't Dawkins position. He has never claimed that babies reject the notion of gods and deities.

In other words, the author has intentionally constructed a strawman version of Dawkins' position so he may attack it in order to appease and titillate his theistic readership.
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#19  Postby Nebogipfel » Jun 13, 2014 11:21 am

CdesignProponentsist wrote:
In other words, the author has intentionally constructed a strawman version of Dawkins' position so he may attack it in order to appease and titillate his theistic readership.


Which is Andrew Brown in a nutshell. If Richard Dawkins didn't exist, i think Brown would find it necessary to invent him. :coffee:
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Re: There's no such thing as an atheist baby

#20  Postby Matt_B » Jun 13, 2014 11:25 am

Thommo wrote:What kind of fuckwit argues with that? Does he seriously want to pretend that babies have thought through the issues and concluded there must be a God?


I've always had the impression that most adult believers haven't really thought through the issues much before doing just that.
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