Where do atheists come from?

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Where do atheists come from?

#1  Postby infiniteentropy » Mar 04, 2010 8:16 am

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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#2  Postby Jef » Mar 04, 2010 8:34 am

Well, you can count me amongst the post-graduates of Oxford who self identify as atheist and the white British men aged 25-34 who claim no religion, and do have a degree level education, who has never been asked, for the purpose of either of those academic studies, to state his position.

For the record, I come from Northamptonshire.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#3  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 04, 2010 8:42 am

Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#4  Postby infiniteentropy » Mar 04, 2010 8:43 am

Spearthrower wrote:Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....


:grin: Good job I had just finished my tea before reading this.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#5  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 04, 2010 8:45 am

Jef wrote:Well, you can count me amongst the post-graduates of Oxford who self identify as atheist and the white British men aged 25-34 who claim no religion, and do have a degree level education, who has never been asked, for the purpose of either of those academic studies, to state his position.

For the record, I come from Northamptonshire.


You can put me on this list simply because I rejected an unconditional offer ( E,E )to study at Oxford in favour of UCL! :grin:

I'm white, British, 25-34, no religion, graduate diploma, never been polled as I live on the other side of the world!
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 04, 2010 8:46 am

infiniteentropy wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....


:grin: Good job I had just finished my tea before reading this.


It had to be done! :cheers:
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#7  Postby PairOfFeet » Mar 04, 2010 8:55 am

Didn't we all come from the planet Atheia or something?
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#8  Postby Paul » Mar 04, 2010 9:11 am

Spearthrower wrote:
infiniteentropy wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....


:grin: Good job I had just finished my tea before reading this.


It had to be done! :cheers:


It did. I had exactly the same thought when I saw the thread title!
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#9  Postby Simon_Gardner » Mar 04, 2010 11:36 am

New Scientist wrote:Where do atheists come from?

HERE’s a fact to flatter the unbelievers among you: the bright young things at the University of Oxford are among the most godless groups ever studied in the UK. Of 728 students surveyed in 2007, 48.9 per cent claimed not to believe in any god, with 49.6 per cent claiming no religious affiliation. And while a very small number of Britons typically label themselves as “atheist” or “agnostic” (most surveys put it at about 5 per cent), an astonishing 57.3 per cent of the Oxford sample did.

This may come as no surprise. After all, atheism is the natural stance of the educated and the informed, is it not? It is only to be expected that Oxford students should be wise to what their own professor Richard Dawkins calls “self-indulgent, thought-denying skyhookery” - and others call “faith”. The old Enlightenment caricature, it seems, is true after all: where Reason reigns, God retires.

Of course, things are never quite that simple. Within the sample, for instance, the postgraduates (that is, the even-better educated) were notably more religious than the undergraduates, in terms of both belief in God and self-description. Although the greater number of non-Europeans in the postgraduate population is almost certainly a significant factor here, evidence from elsewhere backs the idea that there is no straightforward relationship between atheism and education.

Let’s look at some results from the World Values Survey, an international attempt to assess the global state of socio-cultural, moral, religious and political values. The 2005 results show that while there is a clear positive correlation between education and lack of belief in God, the effect is slightly weaker, not stronger, among those with a university education (14.8 per cent were non-believers) compared with those whose highest attainment was secondary level (17.2 per cent).

What is more, the survey shows a far stronger correlation between education and certain “irrational” beliefs: for example, only 29.6 per cent of those without even an elementary education believe in telepathy, compared with 51.8 per cent of people with degree-level education.

Closer to home, an analysis of the 2008 British Social Attitudes (BSA) survey by David Voas of the University of Manchester reveals that the historical correlation between being educated and being “non-religious” has not only weakened but reversed. Looking at white British people, for example, the findings show that only around 25 per cent of men aged between 25 and 34 claiming “no religion” have degrees, compared with around 40 per cent of those describing themselves as religious. For women in the same age group, the difference is less marked but the trend is the same. The picture is more complicated across different ethnic groups, although the overall trend remains the same.

It appears that Enlightenment assumptions about the decline of religion as the population becomes more educated will no longer do - at least, not without considerable qualification. Why is it that, despite the long history of the study of religion, the picture seems to be getting more and not less confused about what it means to believe in God? We, and the scholars who gathered in December last year for a conference at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, think we may have the answer. The problems stem from a long-term, collective blind spot in research: atheism itself.

This oversight might seem remarkable (or remarkably obtuse on the part of the social scientists) but it is one with deep historical roots. Many of social science’s 19th-century founders, including Sigmund Freud, Karl Marx, Émile Durkheim, Auguste Comte and Max Weber, were unbelievers, or “religiously unmusical”, as Weber memorably put it. For them, religion was the great explicandum: how, they wondered, could so many people believe in something so absurd? What they failed to recognise was that their own, taken-for-granted, “lack” of belief might itself be amenable to inquiry.

Ironically, sociologists, psychologists, economists and, particularly, cognitive anthropologists have become so skilled at explaining why humans seem to have such a widespread bias towards theistic beliefs that a new question readily presents itself: if religion comes so naturally to us, why are so many people, especially in western Europe, apparently resistant to it? In the UK, for example, a sizeable 43 per cent said they had “no religion” in the 2008 BSA survey.
If religion comes naturally to us, why are so many people resistant to it?

Moreover, social scientists themselves consistently rank as the most atheistic of all academics: see a recent study by Neil Gross at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada, and Solon Simmons of the Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution at George Mason University, Arlington, Virginia (Sociology of Religion, in press).

What we need now is a scientific study not of the theistic, but the atheistic mind. We need to discover why some people do not “get” the supernatural agency many cognitive scientists argue comes automatically to our brains. Is this capacity non-existent in the non-religious, or is it rerouted, undermined or overwritten - and under what conditions?

Psychologically, we need to know how the self functions without theistic belief, and how our emotional resources might be altered by its absence. Anthropologically, we need to understand how people without religion make sense of their lives, how they find meaning, and how non-theistic systems of thought are embedded in, and shape, the different cultures in which they are present. Sociologically, we need to know how these alternative meaning-making systems are shared between societies, how they unite or divide us, and whether non-religious groups contain pro-social elements commonly associated with religion itself.

For all these reasons and more - not to mention the sheer thrill of entering uncharted waters - we set up the international and interdisciplinary Non-religion and Secularity Research Network in late 2008. The Wolfson meeting was the NSRN’s inaugural conference, only the second event on this topic ever to be held in Europe. (The first was convened by the Vatican in 1969: make of that what you will.)

The conference presented the first fruits of research in this area - and discussed how much still needs to be done. One of the first tasks is to develop a common academic vocabulary. In this article, for instance, we have danced between “atheistic”, “non-theistic”, “non-religious”, “unbelieving” and “godless” as if they were synonyms. They’re not.

Interesting findings have, however, begun to emerge; some providing insight into the relationship between education and atheism. Voas, also a keynote speaker at the Wolfson conference, says one reason why a greater number of religious people are degree-holders may be that “better educated people have typically reflected on religion and have the self-confidence to come down decisively, on one side or the other”. The issue is not which idea - atheism or theism - is more stupid than the other, but that education helps us either to work out or simply to communicate our beliefs, no matter what they are.

He also notes the observation by another keynote presenter, Colin Campbell of the University of York, whose 1971 book Toward a Sociology of Irreligion had until very recently been a lone voice in the wilderness. Campbell argues that though the educated are often the first to articulate a new cultural perspective, if that perspective becomes popular, it will spread across the population. As a result, the education levels associated with that perspective naturally average out. So it is that the relationship between intelligence or education and cultural shifts may not be as significant as they first appear.

Everybody stands to benefit from wider and more systematic research of the atheistic or non-religious. The believers may take heart from the fact that the most comprehensive studies no longer suggest the unreligious are cleverer or more lettered than them. But the non-believers might also comfort themselves that they are no longer outside the mainstream. They have become a “normal” and significant part of many societies. And researchers ignore them at their peril.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527506.100-where-do-atheists-come-from.html?full=true


New Scientist wrote:Editorial Time to accept that atheism, not god, is odd

IF YOU’RE one of those committed atheists in the Richard Dawkins mould who dreams of ridding the world of religious mumbo-jumbo, prepare yourself for a disappointment: there is no good evidence that education leads to secularisation.

In fact, the more we learn about the “god instinct” and the refusal of religion to fade away under the onslaught of progress, the more the non-religious mindset looks like the odd man out. That is why anthropologists, psychologists and social scientists are now putting irreligion under the microscope in the same way they once did with religious belief.

The aim is not to discredit atheism but to understand how so many people can override a way of thinking that seems to come so naturally. For that reason, atheists should welcome the new scrutiny.

Atheism still has a great deal to commend it, not least that it doesn’t need supernatural beings to make sense of the world. Let’s hope the study of atheism leads to new insights into how to challenge such irrationality.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527502.400-time-to-accept-that-atheism-not-god-is-odd.html
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#10  Postby jim » Mar 04, 2010 1:04 pm

New Scientist wrote: Let’s hope the study of atheism leads to new insights into how to challenge such irrationality.


Excuse me?
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Come on, Ted. Sure it's no more peculiar than all that stuff we learned in the seminary, you know, Heaven and Hell and everlasting life and all that type of thing. You're not meant to take it seriously, Ted!
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#11  Postby dOG » Mar 04, 2010 1:15 pm

I think it meant 'supernatural beings' are irrational, not atheism.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#12  Postby jim » Mar 04, 2010 2:03 pm

I realise that, could have been worded better though.
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Come on, Ted. Sure it's no more peculiar than all that stuff we learned in the seminary, you know, Heaven and Hell and everlasting life and all that type of thing. You're not meant to take it seriously, Ted!
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#13  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 04, 2010 2:18 pm

Spearthrower wrote:Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too...
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#14  Postby thirsting » Mar 04, 2010 2:38 pm

Edit: Agh, redundant post. I'm sloowww... And no way to delete obsolete posts anymore, it seems. I am horrified and offended by this!
Last edited by thirsting on Mar 04, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Well that was awkward.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#15  Postby dOG » Mar 04, 2010 2:43 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Where do atheists come from?

When daddy atheist and mummy atheist love each other very much, daddy atheist lies down beside mummy atheist and gets an 'erection'.....

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too...

No doubt that's because you come from somewhere called 'Mons'.

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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 04, 2010 3:02 pm

jim wrote:
New Scientist wrote: Let’s hope the study of atheism leads to new insights into how to challenge such irrationality.


Excuse me?




Atheism still has a great deal to commend it, not least that it doesn’t need supernatural beings to make sense of the world. Let’s hope the study of atheism leads to new insights into how to challenge such irrationality.


My bold

It does appear to be a very contrived sentence! :snooty:

It would have been clearer had it been written


Atheism still has a great deal to commend it, not least that it doesn’t need irrational suppositions like supernatural beings to make sense of the world. Let’s hope the study of atheism leads to new insights into how to challenge such irrationality.


I think it was done on purpose - who wrote the article?
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#17  Postby T. Kari » Mar 04, 2010 8:56 pm

New Scientist is getting worse every day! What the fuck were up with those horse shit conclusion?
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#18  Postby Chrisw » Mar 06, 2010 2:24 pm

Simon_Gardner wrote:
New Scientist wrote:Ironically, sociologists, psychologists, economists and, particularly, cognitive anthropologists have become so skilled at explaining why humans seem to have such a widespread bias towards theistic beliefs that a new question readily presents itself: if religion comes so naturally to us, why are so many people, especially in western Europe, apparently resistant to it? In the UK, for example, a sizeable 43 per cent said they had “no religion” in the 2008 BSA survey. If religion comes naturally to us, why are so many people resistant to it?

This is is such a dumb question. When they talk about "theistic" beliefs what they really mean is supernatural beliefs. Obviously belief in anthropomorphic deities doesn't come "naturally", it's a cultural construct. For example, ancient China was not theistic but there was plenty of superstition. Superstition was universal until modern science.

So the question they are asking (in a science magazine!) is why do some people reject superstition. What kind of a dumb question is that?

...What we need now is a scientific study not of the theistic, but the atheistic mind. We need to discover why some people do not “get” the supernatural agency many cognitive scientists argue comes automatically to our brains. Is this capacity non-existent in the non-religious, or is it rerouted, undermined or overwritten - and under what conditions?

Of course we "get" it. We couldnt understand ghost stories or fairy tales if we somehow didnt understand the concept of the supernatural. We just see no reason to believe that supernatural agency is actually present in the world.

The writers reveal themselves as religious believers here by talking about atheists as if they were strange, unfathomable creatures. They are attempting to change the terms of the debate by impying that not being religious is something peverse or even pathological.

Psychologically, we need to know how the self functions without theistic belief, and how our emotional resources might be altered by its absence.

Only a particularly unquestioning and unimaginative theist could have written that sentence.

Anthropologically, we need to understand how people without religion make sense of their lives, how they find meaning, and how non-theistic systems of thought are embedded in, and shape, the different cultures in which they are present.

"Non-theistic systems of thought". That would be the vast majority of systems of thought in the modern world.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#19  Postby Roger Cooke » Mar 07, 2010 2:29 am

The article Simon_Gardner posted makes a good point: Religion does indeed decline as education increases, but it often gets replaced by equally irrational beliefs of a purely secular kind. I know several atheists who dismiss Christianity out of hand, but are simultaneously capable of believing in channeling, astrology, dowsing, and a host of other discredited types of wishful thinking. Some, in fact, are friends of mine, and I don't challenge their beliefs any more than I would attempt to argue a Christian friend out of his or her faith. I have no particular respect for the belief, but the person holding it is entitled to courtesy and respect.
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Re: Where do atheists come from?

#20  Postby LaMont Cranston » Mar 07, 2010 5:53 am

One of the things that some people do not want to look at is the demographics of atheism. For starters, from what I can tell, the makeup of RDF and this forum is predominately white, male and of Northern European heritage. Those people attracted to the so-called "new atheism" tend to be people with leanings in the direction of math and the sciences, often while ignoring other subject areas. It would also not come as any great suprise if those that compose the ranks of the "new atheism" are relatively young and have a higher proportion of single males than the society as a whole. In a sense, atheism attracts certain individuals who embrace atheistic rhetoric as something akin to "the flavor of the month." Do not be suprised if many of those who are attracted to this movement eventually become theists.
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