A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

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Re: Just a coincidence?

#41  Postby falasha » Jun 15, 2010 9:20 pm

Gallstones wrote:
falasha wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Why? New Athiests label everything that does not meet their criteria as "Woo".


Why? Because it doesn't mean anything. Across two threads you've been unable to provide a coherent definition of 'spiritual', and yet you use it liberally, even claiming that others 'realise' that they possess this apparently characteristicless quality. Stop going about the forum blithely labelling anyone who doesn't immediately accept your empty claims. So far, all I've been doing is attempting to extract some kind of meaningful definition out of you, so don't apply your pre-conceived notions to me, please. It's quite rude.


I apologize. Also, I provided a definition.

Do you not know that the rise of athiests after the book The God Delusion was written are called New Athiests?


Es macht nichts falasha. I was atheist and didn't even know Richard Dawkins existed or read his books. :shock:

I'm an old atheist, the practical and utilitarian type. There was no popular atheist culture when I came to it. :whisper:



Me either! I have been an athiest from birth. Outsiders do not differentiate between old athiests and new athiests. They all look the same to them.
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Re: Just a coincidence?

#42  Postby Gallstones » Jun 16, 2010 3:57 am

shh wrote:

Not sure what the point of this was, it doesn't say anything about good or bad shoots. Still anything with potatoes in is good, I am Irish. :lol:
It's still all physical. :levi:
What is? :scratch: If this is a reference to my not being a materialist, I'd say it's pretty OT, but whether or not X is physical isn't really anything to do with materialism.


No, it was an impulse thing. Don't take my post too seriously.

My potato point was that one can know how to choose good potato eyes for potentially good shoots. :shifty:

And the all physical was for falasha who claims there is something not physical.
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Re: Just a coincidence?

#43  Postby Animavore » Jun 16, 2010 9:32 am

:hungry: Taters.


falasha wrote:I have been an athiest from birth.


Technically everyone's an atheist at birth ;)
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Re: Just a coincidence?

#44  Postby twistor59 » Jun 16, 2010 11:52 am

falasha wrote:
IIzO wrote:
falasha wrote:
Fallible wrote:
MORE women than men realize we have a spiritual component to our existence. How about this as a definition; Experience that does not adhere to laws of physical dimension.


Except you were using the term as a quality of human beings, not an experience.


2nd try; Characteristic of human existence that does not adhere to laws of physical dimension.

2nd try ; what the hell are those physical dimension you are talking about , and why do you think they need to be breached in order for you to have the said experiences ?
I dream a lot , its also possible to have transcendant experiences , and things that look like any out of body experiences....so why are to use a special word for those things and forfeat any inquiry while it's actually just part of the body of experiences people actually have?


Many people have had the same kind of experience I had so you are correct. However, when I was watching the scenario play out in the ambulance I was looking from above them. I was watching the backs of their heads.


But do you accept the possibility that your ears were feeding the information about the conversation into your brain - you may have been unconscious to the outside observer, but your brain could have been feeding the information into your memory. The visual effects may just have been a corruption of your memory. Do you think that sort of interpretation is at least a possibility ?
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#45  Postby falasha » Jun 16, 2010 5:39 pm

Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#46  Postby IIzO » Jun 16, 2010 6:53 pm

falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.

Never heard about the sub consciouss?It does strange things like saving informations you arn't consciouss of and then letting them into the consciouss....
Between what i think , what i want to say ,what i believe i say ,what i say , what you want to hear , what you hear ,what you understand...there are lots of possibilities that we might have some problem communicating.But let's try anyway.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#47  Postby falasha » Jun 16, 2010 7:20 pm

IIzO wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.

Never heard about the sub consciouss?It does strange things like saving informations you arn't consciouss of and then letting them into the consciouss....


Absolutely, and probably how auditory memory was stored. But my eyes were obsfucated so there was no visual. BTW, my face was cut up pretty badly and blood was saturating everything which is probably why my mom went into hysterics. Even if I were conscious, I would not be able to see.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#48  Postby IIzO » Jun 16, 2010 7:23 pm

falasha wrote:
IIzO wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.

Never heard about the sub consciouss?It does strange things like saving informations you arn't consciouss of and then letting them into the consciouss....


Absolutely, and probably how auditory memory was stored. But my eyes were obsfucated so there was no visual. BTW, my face was cut up pretty badly and blood was saturating everything which is probably why my mom went into hysterics. Even if I were conscious, I would not be able to see.

My post was rigorously targeting the first two sentences only so.... :think: whatever you want , it's your story.
Between what i think , what i want to say ,what i believe i say ,what i say , what you want to hear , what you hear ,what you understand...there are lots of possibilities that we might have some problem communicating.But let's try anyway.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#49  Postby twistor59 » Jun 16, 2010 8:02 pm

falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.


But what I was suggesting was that the images may not have been real - they may have been false memories somehow created by the trauma to your head ?
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Re: Just a coincidence?

#50  Postby Gallstones » Jun 16, 2010 8:03 pm

Animavore wrote: :hungry: Taters.


falasha wrote:I have been an athiest from birth.


Technically everyone's an atheist at birth ;)


:hungry: Spuds.

Yeah and then we get Born Again.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#51  Postby Emmeline » Jun 16, 2010 8:13 pm

So no definition of what "spiritual" is yet then? Other than "something I can't explain".
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#52  Postby chairman bill » Jun 16, 2010 8:24 pm

IIzO wrote:... Never heard about the sub consciouss? ...


I've heard a fair bit of bollocks about it. Still don't know what it is though. If it's not conscious, it's unconscious.

As for 'spirituality' ... well, get away from the simplistic, simple-minded literalist focus on 'spiritual' as referring to spirits or soul, and we have such things as thinking that gives rise to religious naturalism & scientific pantheism. Whilst atheism describes an absence of belief, something like religious naturalism or scientific pantheism describes a positive viewpoint vis a vis our relationship with the natural world (as opposed to any posited supernatural one). The search for meaning in life, and/or for an understanding of our relationship with the wider cosmos, come within the purview of 'spirituality'. No need for woo.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#53  Postby falasha » Jun 16, 2010 8:54 pm

twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.


But what I was suggesting was that the images may not have been real - they may have been false memories somehow created by the trauma to your head ?


Except that it wasn't. My mother certainly didn't tell me she freaked out in the ambulance and had to be chastised by the paramedics.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#54  Postby twistor59 » Jun 16, 2010 9:04 pm

falasha wrote:
twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.


But what I was suggesting was that the images may not have been real - they may have been false memories somehow created by the trauma to your head ?


Except that it wasn't. My mother certainly didn't tell me she freaked out in the ambulance and had to be chastised by the paramedics.


Maybe you heard the chastisement incident, but your brain created the visual image of what it thought it looked like ? Maybe in trauma, audio and visual inputs can get mixed up (I'm no neuroscientist !). Just trying to suggest that there may be a non-supernatural explanation for it all. Of course, having had the experience yourself, it would seem totally real to you, but then if I had the technology to wipe out the memory of your real past life and replace it with a memory of your life as a rock singer, you'd swear to high heaven that you used to be a rock singer. If memories get screwed, it's very convincing....
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#55  Postby falasha » Jun 16, 2010 9:27 pm

twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:
twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.


But what I was suggesting was that the images may not have been real - they may have been false memories somehow created by the trauma to your head ?


Except that it wasn't. My mother certainly didn't tell me she freaked out in the ambulance and had to be chastised by the paramedics.


Maybe you heard the chastisement incident, but your brain created the visual image of what it thought it looked like ? Maybe in trauma, audio and visual inputs can get mixed up (I'm no neuroscientist !). Just trying to suggest that there may be a non-supernatural explanation for it all. Of course, having had the experience yourself, it would seem totally real to you, but then if I had the technology to wipe out the memory of your real past life and replace it with a memory of your life as a rock singer, you'd swear to high heaven that you used to be a rock singer. If memories get screwed, it's very convincing....


Please don't think I am rude but I can't think of any other way to state this. The people on this forum have a problem understanding this concept and I keep having to repeat. I DO NOT think this experience is supernatural. I am sure it follows all natural laws that pertain to it. These things happen to a lot of people and my experience is no where near unique.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#56  Postby twistor59 » Jun 17, 2010 6:55 am

falasha wrote:
twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:
twistor59 wrote:
falasha wrote:Twistor, Of course I was receiving information via physical auditory system. However, it was not processed in my conscious mind. The images I percieved may have not been visual. Imaging does not have to be visual.


But what I was suggesting was that the images may not have been real - they may have been false memories somehow created by the trauma to your head ?


Except that it wasn't. My mother certainly didn't tell me she freaked out in the ambulance and had to be chastised by the paramedics.


Maybe you heard the chastisement incident, but your brain created the visual image of what it thought it looked like ? Maybe in trauma, audio and visual inputs can get mixed up (I'm no neuroscientist !). Just trying to suggest that there may be a non-supernatural explanation for it all. Of course, having had the experience yourself, it would seem totally real to you, but then if I had the technology to wipe out the memory of your real past life and replace it with a memory of your life as a rock singer, you'd swear to high heaven that you used to be a rock singer. If memories get screwed, it's very convincing....


Please don't think I am rude but I can't think of any other way to state this. The people on this forum have a problem understanding this concept and I keep having to repeat. I DO NOT think this experience is supernatural. I am sure it follows all natural laws that pertain to it. These things happen to a lot of people and my experience is no where near unique.


Sorry, "non supernatural" wasn't a good description of what I meant to say. What I was getting at is that you're suggesting that there is a way that audio visual information can be transferred to your memory without going though your eyes and ears - in your case the audio visual record of the events in the ambulance. What I'm arguing is that the laws of nature, which we currently understand to demand that the eyes and ears are involved, were still respected in your case and that no visual information was transferred - rather that a memory was created instead.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#57  Postby falasha » Jun 17, 2010 3:14 pm

Twistor, the laws of nature that we currently understand would definitely not account for this experience. But thousands and thousands of people are saying that these things happen to them. Therefore, we do not know ALL of the laws of nature. Instead of relegating these experiences to delusion or supernatural, why not accept their existence and investigate?
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#58  Postby twistor59 » Jun 17, 2010 4:00 pm

I remember reading once about some hospital that placed some object high up in the operating theatre out of sight of anyone standing on the floor. The intention was that if someone claimed to have an OOB experience (supposedly common in hospitals), then they could afterwards relate information about the object. I can't remember any more details or any conclusions from the experiment. Maybe someone can remember the source .... ?
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#59  Postby falasha » Jun 17, 2010 4:19 pm

twistor59 wrote:I remember reading once about some hospital that placed some object high up in the operating theatre out of sight of anyone standing on the floor. The intention was that if someone claimed to have an OOB experience (supposedly common in hospitals), then they could afterwards relate information about the object. I can't remember any more details or any conclusions from the experiment. Maybe someone can remember the source .... ?

The problem with this is that investigators are assuming the person experiencing this has the same intent as the investigator. The investigator assumes the person will be able to reason that when he returns to his body he will want to give evidence of what just happened. I don't think this is true. I don't think a person experiencing this can (think) in future tense. There is only the NOW. When this happened to me it did not seem unusual. I did not say WOW look at me floating up here! There was only reaction to what was happening at that point in time. When my mother freaked out I did not think she was justified. I only thought of my embarassment. I looked at myself dispassionately. There was blood everywhere but I did not worry about the future of my appearance. When the paramedic turned and looked at my mom with that look on his face it said everything. It said "Lady, you are worried that your daughter is going to die and yet you are keeping me from working on her because of your hysterical rantings." My mother immediately shut up.

It has been many years since I have thought about the accident and writing about it has made me revisist. When I was released from Intensive Care and aware of my surroundings I relayed what happened to me. Now I think everyone was briefed about how to react because they just waited for me to talk. I did not remember the accident but I knew there had been one. I started talking about the ambulance ride and my a brief look of embarassment came onto my mother's face. It was that look of embarassment that took me back to the incident in the ambulance although I did not see her face in the ambulance.
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Re: A Spiritual Component Of Our Existence?

#60  Postby twistor59 » Jun 17, 2010 4:31 pm

falasha wrote:
twistor59 wrote:I remember reading once about some hospital that placed some object high up in the operating theatre out of sight of anyone standing on the floor. The intention was that if someone claimed to have an OOB experience (supposedly common in hospitals), then they could afterwards relate information about the object. I can't remember any more details or any conclusions from the experiment. Maybe someone can remember the source .... ?

The problem with this is that investigators are assuming the person experiencing this has the same intent as the investigator. The investigator assumes the person will be able to reason that when he returns to his body he will want to give evidence of what just happened. I don't think this is true. I don't think a person experiencing this can (think) in future tense. There is only the NOW. When this happened to me it did not seem unusual. I did not say WOW look at me floating up here! There was only reaction to what was happening at that point in time. When my mother freaked out I did not think she was justified. I only thought of my embarassment. I looked at myself dispassionately. There was blood everywhere but I did not worry about the future of my appearance. When the paramedic turned and looked at my mom with that look on his face it said everything. It said "Lady, you are worried that your daughter is going to die and yet you are keeping me from working on her because of your hysterical rantings." My mother immediately shut up.

It has been many years since I have thought about the accident and writing about it has made me revisist. When I was released from Intensive Care and aware of my surroundings I relayed what happened to me. Now I think everyone was briefed about how to react because they just waited for me to talk. I did not remember the accident but I knew there had been one. I started talking about the ambulance ride and my a brief look of embarassment came onto my mother's face. It was that look of embarassment that took me back to the incident in the ambulance although I did not see her face in the ambulance.


Unfortunately, that makes it extremely difficult to do any sort of investigation of this alleged phenomenon. Unless there is some way to rule out other mechanisms of knowledge transfer (such as attempting to render them impossible as in the experiment I half remember reading about !), the default position will always be that it's due to the mechanisms we already know about. I don't see any way round it - otherwise all that is available is personal testimony, and it's hard to see how to make progress with just that.
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