Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1901  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Jun 23, 2016 4:25 pm

Shrunk wrote:
kyrani99 wrote:But people here are trying to call a person's memory, which is emotionally charged and may include impressions formed at the time, as fabrication. So by that definition anything can be called a fabrication.


No. In this case it is called fabrication because the "facts" of the story are internally contradictory. All passengers in the two vehicles could not have been killed instantly without there being any deaths occurring in the crash. You could not have seen something that you did not see. These are the claims you have made about your story. We don't have to know what happened to know that your story is false, and emotional content is irrelevant to the falseness of your story.


And even if we accept there was a true event the memory is about we can tell from all the changing aspects of the story that the memory is not trustworthy. And with that in mind all parts of it including the claimed premonition become meaningless. If I was trying to tell someone a story and I was that wildly off over two retellings I would think that my memory was wrong not try and force others to agree that I must be right.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1902  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 23, 2016 4:26 pm

the_5th_ape wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote: If possible get a camera crew to come in and record your premonition on video. With evidence of the date. And all.

Kyrani knows to draw.


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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1903  Postby Shrunk » Jun 23, 2016 4:30 pm

DarthHelmet86 wrote:And even if we accept there was a true event the memory is about we can tell from all the changing aspects of the story that the memory is not trustworthy. And with that in mind all parts of it including the claimed premonition become meaningless. If I was trying to tell someone a story and I was that wildly off over two retellings I would think that my memory was wrong not try and force others to agree that I must be right.


What would you even be trying to get them to agree with, if you have two contradictory sets of facts? Presumably kyrani is fine with us not accepting that anyone was killed, since she has already presented that as a possibility. But just because she has uet to backtrack on the "premonition" does not mean it is any more likely to be true than any of the other parts of the story that she later contradicted. It most likely is that that is the part of the story in which she is most invested, so she won't change that part.

Then it really gets weird when the one part you demand people accept is the one that relies on the existence of supernatural paranormal processes.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1904  Postby Bubalus » Jun 23, 2016 4:33 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:OK, so she's back...again. :nono:

I will join in with this thread, but I really need to be pissed first.

See you later..................


I have a premonition that you are going to partake in alcohol :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1905  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Jun 23, 2016 4:33 pm

Shrunk wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:And even if we accept there was a true event the memory is about we can tell from all the changing aspects of the story that the memory is not trustworthy. And with that in mind all parts of it including the claimed premonition become meaningless. If I was trying to tell someone a story and I was that wildly off over two retellings I would think that my memory was wrong not try and force others to agree that I must be right.


What would you even be trying to get them to agree with, if you have two contradictory sets of facts? Presumably kyrani is fine with us not accepting that anyone was killed, since she has already presented that as a possibility. But just because she has uet to backtrack on the "premonition" does not mean it is any more likely to be true than any of the other parts of the story that she later contradicted. It most likely is that that is the part of the story in which she is most invested, so she won't change that part.

Then it really gets weird when the one part you demand people accept is the one that relies on the existence of supernatural paranormal processes.


Its very weird. It would be like telling a story about a ghost you saw, then retelling with it set in a different location with different scares and when called on it going "Well you can't prove me wrong about the ghost bit".
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1906  Postby Shrunk » Jun 23, 2016 4:35 pm

DarthHelmet86 wrote:Its very weird. It would be like telling a story about a ghost you saw, then retelling with it set in a different location with different scares and when called on it going "Well you can't prove me wrong about the ghost bit".


Which, right, we can't. It's just something she claimed she saw, and no one is in any position to comment on it.

Strangely, she sees this as a point in her favour. :dunno:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1907  Postby Sendraks » Jun 23, 2016 4:39 pm

kyrani99 wrote: I know the scientific view is that we are all robots so maybe you want to see a computer printouts of the robot's past experiences and without emotion of course.


Oh you "know" this do you? I personally find it very hard to "know" stuff that has no basis in fact.


kyrani99 wrote:As for delusions again anything that is in a person's subjective experience and interpersonal environment, to which all others are not privy, is, by many people especially skeptics, called delusional.


Nope. This is bullshit you've just made up and entirely inconsistent with the definition of delusional.

kyrani99 wrote:There is no scientific evidence for any personal/subjective experience

I've already debunked this ridiculous notion where I discussed marmite. There is absolutely evidence that people do have subjective experiences. Where you're confused is that subjective experiences do not constitute objective evidence in and of themselves.

But I've already explained this and as per usual, you've ignored it.

kyrani99 wrote:so a skeptic will want to use that to call another person's memory of an experience as a fabrication or delusion,

Nope. Again you're utterly confused about what has been said or deliberately misinterpreting what has been said in order to cling to your wibbly wobbly nonsense argument.

Fact: People can and do fabricate their experience of events.
Fact: Individuals recollections of events are not reliable evidence by themselves.
Fact: Only where individual recollections can be robustly correlated with objective evidence, do they have any value as a record of what occurred.
Fact: Where Individual recollections of events cannot be robustly correlated with objective evidence, because they involve stuff that has no objective measure like the supernatural, they fail as evidence. All you can say is at best the individual believes in what they say happened.

kyrani99 wrote:sespecially if it conflicts with their view of reality. :roll:

Events which can be objectively verified are not a "view" of reality. They ARE reality. Do learn this basic concept.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1908  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jun 23, 2016 7:31 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:OK, so she's back...again. :nono:

I will join in with this thread, but I really need to be pissed first.

See you later..................


Oh, me too! :cheers:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1909  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jun 23, 2016 7:34 pm

Ok, I found some Hobgoblin...

Doubtdispelled wrote:Hey, Kyrani, are you up for a challenge?

There is someone buried not far from the back of my house who, if your good doctor and others who go on about the existence of an 'afterlife' are correct, should prove to be an ideal subject for contact with 'the dead', given the circumstances in which this person was buried.

If you, or one of your fellow psychics would be good enough to attempt to speak to this soul, and gain information which you could pass to me, i.e. gender, age, how and when interred, etc. etc., any of those but as many as possible, then I swear I will eat my hat, bow down and worship and never dismiss your beliefs ever again.


I would love a response to this... *cough*
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1910  Postby BlackBart » Jun 23, 2016 8:01 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
kyrani99 wrote:
I could give a different example that was only about 10 years ago and much simpler but still a sort of premonition of danger or mental warning by a tree that was about to fall! :)


And it would have as much value as your last cool story. And as I notice you totally failed to answer the questions I posed, despite the surfeit of typing you provided, so I'll ask it yet again.

How do we differentiate between your anecdotes and fabrication or delusion. And if we can't, what value do they have?


I did answer your question. I said you have to inquire further and try to get the sequence of events and tease out the person's emotional response.


So far, the events that have been 'teased' out of your story have been incoherent and contradicatory. And even if a story is logically consistent that doesn't mean we can conclude that it's veracity is sound. And how in blazes can you measure the veracity of an anecdote by an emotional response?
So, no you haven't answered the questions at all.


I know the scientific view is that we are all robots so maybe you want to see a computer printouts of the robot's past experiences and without emotion of course.


That strawman argument is so wincingly inane, I'll just leave it there


Some people do make up stories. Possibly it is hard to determine what is a made up story and what is not in some cases. But people here are trying to call a person's memory, which is emotionally charged and may include impressions formed at the time, as fabrication. So by that definition anything can be called a fabrication.


Er, yeah, um, you're assuming the consequent here - you haven't demonstrated that is an actual memory as opposed to delusion or fabrication - and you're also admitting here that memories aren't even reliable in the first place.


As for delusions again anything that is in a person's subjective experience and interpersonal environment, to which all others are not privy, is, by many people especially skeptics, called delusional. Maybe that is what you want to call it but this is only your opinion.


I haven't called it anything or 'want' to call it anything. What I have been doing is asking a question which you have failed to answer.


There is no scientific evidence for any personal/subjective experience so a skeptic will want to use that to call another person's memory of an experience as a fabrication or delusion, especially if it conflicts with their view of reality. :roll:


As has already pointed out that's just plain made up bullshit.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1911  Postby BlackBart » Jun 23, 2016 8:02 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:Ok, I found some Hobgoblin...



Hope you brought enough for everyone :)
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1912  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jun 23, 2016 8:12 pm

BlackBart wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:Ok, I found some Hobgoblin...



Hope you brought enough for everyone :)


I did, I think. A 5l cask with a fancy little tap on it. It was in the reduced section at a local Co-op. I couldn't just leave it there, had to give it a home.

:beer:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1913  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jun 23, 2016 8:17 pm

BTW, just what the heck is this all about?

kyrani99 wrote:I know the scientific view is that we are all robots


Where did that come from?

:eh:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1914  Postby BlackBart » Jun 23, 2016 8:22 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:Ok, I found some Hobgoblin...



Hope you brought enough for everyone :)


I did, I think. A 5l cask with a fancy little tap on it. It was in the reduced section at a local Co-op. I couldn't just leave it there, had to give it a home.

:beer:


:awesome: :beercheers:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1915  Postby Arnold Layne » Jun 23, 2016 9:05 pm

BlackBart wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:Ok, I found some Hobgoblin...



Hope you brought enough for everyone :)


I did, I think. A 5l cask with a fancy little tap on it. It was in the reduced section at a local Co-op. I couldn't just leave it there, had to give it a home.

:beer:


:awesome: :beercheers:

OK, I'm pissed now.

Glad you started without me! :thumbup:

So, I'm not sure if I missed anything, so I thought I'd summarise........

Kyrani came here and spouted some fucking bollocks.
We all said, "That's fucking bollocks."
Kyrani went off in a huff.
Kyrani came back, and spouted some different fucking bollocks.
We all said, "That's fucking bollocks, and doesn't even match the fucking bollocks you said before.
Kyrani went off in a huff.
Kyrani came back again, and spouted some more fucking bollocks which contradicted the 2 lots of fucking bollocks she spouted before.
We, well, you, all said, "That's fucking bollocks, and it doesn't even match the 2 lots of fucking bollocks you spouted before."

Has anyone anything to add, apart from, maybe, "This Hobgoblin is fucking good!"
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1916  Postby Bubalus » Jun 23, 2016 9:27 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:
BlackBart wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
BlackBart wrote:

Hope you brought enough for everyone :)


I did, I think. A 5l cask with a fancy little tap on it. It was in the reduced section at a local Co-op. I couldn't just leave it there, had to give it a home.

:beer:


:awesome: :beercheers:

OK, I'm pissed now.

Glad you started without me! :thumbup:

So, I'm not sure if I missed anything, so I thought I'd summarise........

Kyrani came here and spouted some fucking bollocks.
We all said, "That's fucking bollocks."
Kyrani went off in a huff.
Kyrani came back, and spouted some different fucking bollocks.
We all said, "That's fucking bollocks, and doesn't even match the fucking bollocks you said before.
Kyrani went off in a huff.
Kyrani came back again, and spouted some more fucking bollocks which contradicted the 2 lots of fucking bollocks she spouted before.
We, well, you, all said, "That's fucking bollocks, and it doesn't even match the 2 lots of fucking bollocks you spouted before."

Has anyone anything to add, apart from, maybe, "This Hobgoblin is fucking good!"


I told you so ... :cheers: :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1917  Postby Fallible » Jun 23, 2016 10:46 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

Or (most likely) you had no premonition, possibly because premonitions do not occur.


In your opinion and based on your experience only. You cannot comment on what experiences I had.


Neither can you, apparently.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1918  Postby Bubalus » Jun 23, 2016 11:14 pm

:rofl:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1919  Postby Agrippina » Jun 24, 2016 8:29 am

Indeed. I have to :lol: at the way Brits can make the inane hilariously funny.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1920  Postby Arnold Layne » Jun 24, 2016 9:27 pm

Agrippina wrote:Indeed. I have to :lol: at the way Brits can make the inane hilariously funny.

We have to, Aggie! :grin:
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