JWG wrote:I will actually plan on trying your proposed experiment, though.
Okay, just to make sure I'm not responsible for this experiment

Be careful though, it's not exactly the healthiest thing you can do to your body

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip
JWG wrote:I will actually plan on trying your proposed experiment, though.
jerome wrote:I believe people experience "ghosts". I doubt anyone denies that people have spooky experiences. I however believe some such experiences represent "real ghosts" -- ghosts that are in some sense objective entities: that they stand independent of the observer, and i do not believe that any current naturalistic explanation, for example infrasound, underground water, gauss variation, etc, etc, accounts for some aspects. These independent entities often appear to display intelligence, possibly self awareness, and be reactive to their environment, leading me to suspect they may represent some form of discarnate intelligence, or a human consciousness operating remotely. I hope that is reasonably clear.
but I just took that list from a paper i am about to submit, so it is not inclusive. I'm happy to define the debate parameters as my opponent desires. Does that help AE?
Thanks guys, look forward to it..
j x
jerome wrote:I managed 71 hours sleep deprivation once. I had quite a complex hallucination of a conversation with a friend, who in fact was not present (he'd fallen asleep). Still it was in a good cause - a charity record attempt (the sleep deprivation was a by product, not the aim of the exercise, and the rules allowed me rest periods I simply did not take.) I lost my sense in the order olfactory/taste, then hearing, then finally my sense of touch (or possibly fine motor control) started to go. I was ill for a good week afterwards. I final;ly fell asleep face first in a Sunday lunch while trying to eat!
I don't think anyone doubts we can hallucinate - most of us have dreams after all, and they are technically hallucinations, and Luis' accounts sounds like a classic fever hallucination - and i would love to hear more.
Given that we have a mechanism to hallucinate in our brains, it is absolutely no surprise that people hallucinate "ghosts". In fact, if we did not, I would be more surprised. As such a ghost experience of "I saw a figure in my room dressed in old fashioned clothes" is not only likely, I'd day it was almost inevitable. Now, lest I sound like i am arguing against "ghosts" from this i'm not in the slightest - I just think most "ghosts" are hallucinations. What is interesting is the small number of "veridical hallucinations"; the multiple -observer cases; and those which are connected with physical manifestations.Those will form the cornerstone fo my arguments.
And yep, "God is many factors more unlikely that ghosts" seems pretty sensible a position to me. I certainly don't believe ghosts are supernatural though: at least I think it unlikely. Paranormal, maybe
j x
Atheist Evolution wrote:We are starting out with a conclusion and trying to verify it through observation. That is clearly the wrong way to study things.
LIFE wrote:Atheist Evolution wrote:We are starting out with a conclusion and trying to verify it through observation. That is clearly the wrong way to study things.
Conclusion Hypothesis = String theory makes sense.
Trying to verify it through observation = Large Hadron Collider.
No?
ETA: I'm not disagreeing with you here, just trying to apply it to another scenario.
Lion IRC wrote:The "same ghost" might not be identically described by two eye witnesses - so what?
Luis Dias wrote:LIFE wrote:Atheist Evolution wrote:We are starting out with a conclusion and trying to verify it through observation. That is clearly the wrong way to study things.
Conclusion Hypothesis = String theory makes sense.
Trying to verify it through observation = Large Hadron Collider.
No?
ETA: I'm not disagreeing with you here, just trying to apply it to another scenario.
Small correction there
Lion IRC wrote:Use Matthew 27:53 as a definition and use the witness testimony as proof.
I dont think it matters whether the appearance of the exact same single "ghost" is observed by more than one person.
I would think the debate should focus on the phenomenon as a whole.
The "same ghost" might not be identically described by two eye witnesses - so what?
Lion (IRC)
LIFE wrote:Luis Dias wrote:LIFE wrote:Atheist Evolution wrote:We are starting out with a conclusion and trying to verify it through observation. That is clearly the wrong way to study things.
Conclusion Hypothesis = String theory makes sense.
Trying to verify it through observation = Large Hadron Collider.
No?
ETA: I'm not disagreeing with you here, just trying to apply it to another scenario.
Small correction there
So? Theoretical physicists can't draw conclusions from a hypothesis?
M-theory based on its mathmatical coherence and accuracy makes sense to them, no?
Moridin wrote:
That is a huge oversimplification.
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/images/us101 ... active.gif
jerome wrote:I enjoy formal debates - they make me think, and work through my position - and I'd love to have a formal debate related in some way to ghosts and apparitions. Anyone interested? I'm pretty mellow, not overly bothered by "winning", I just like exploring issues, and it's been a while. Anyone want to take me on? We can work out a title?
j x
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
LIFE wrote:If M-theory and its implications would turn out to be established fact, the closest thing I could imagine what ghosts could be were entities that probably live in other dimensions and somehow are temporarily visible to some in our "domain". That's a big if though and entirely speculative, I wouldn't for a second try to claim its validity.
Luis Dias wrote:Hypothesis --> Test ---> validation ----> conclusion.
Moridin wrote:That is a huge oversimplification.
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/images/us101 ... active.gif
Return to Paranormal & Supernatural
Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest