Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

Discussions on UFOs, ghosts, myths etc.

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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#121  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 05, 2010 8:54 am

Virus wrote:
jerome wrote:
No it's a 450+ page analysis of the results of a census! :)


This site summarizes the Report on the Census of Hallucinations.

http://www.pflyceum.org/153.html

First of all it's not even about ghosts, it's about ESP. Get your story straight. Secondly, it's based entirely on data obtained by personal testimony. This is your grade A, solid gold evidence? Looks like weaksauce to me.

I'm not reading 450 pages. Summarize the conclusion as succinctly as possible and tell me why I should be impressed with it. Otherwise I'll go back to ridicule and cheap jokes.


Read the entire thread instead of making uninformed posts.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#122  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 05, 2010 8:55 am

Darkchilde wrote:
-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:Seriously, you're all a bunch of self righteous ignorant asshats.

Like Jerome has said, there is evidence.


MOD NOTE

Sylvan Shadow, the above constitutes a personal insult towards the members of this forum. Please read the forum rules carefully which can be found here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/old-announcements/forum-users-agreement-t76.html

Now, since you are new to the forum, I am only going to strongly suggest that you read the forum rules carefully.

END MOD NOTE


Will do. :thumbup:
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#123  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 05, 2010 8:57 am

I have to say, I'm totally lost with this thread now, not too sure who or what to reply to.
The thread reminds me of a tree, with all the branches :lol:
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#124  Postby tnjrp » Mar 05, 2010 9:00 am

It's a broad subject.

---

PS. Anyone who's in for a bit of empirical research into troubled spirits can apparently now get two "for the price of one" fairly easily -- all you have to do really is win an online auction:
general-debunking/two-bottled-ghosts-for-sale-t1629.html
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#125  Postby Virus » Mar 05, 2010 10:16 am

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:
Read the entire thread instead of making uninformed posts.


I've read the entire thread. I asked for the grade A, best available evidence. Summarized and succinct. That's what real scientists deliver, not hand-waving and obscuration.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#126  Postby NucleicAcid » Mar 06, 2010 4:54 am

I thought it was pretty summarized and succinct. But I could probably distill it into a single sentence:

More people have had paranormal experiences than what can be accounted for by chance and coincidence, by an extremely large margin.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#127  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Mar 06, 2010 4:57 am

NucleicAcid wrote:I thought it was pretty summarized and succinct. But I could probably distill it into a single sentence:

More people have had paranormal experiences than what can be accounted for by chance and coincidence, by an extremely large margin.


So is that the evidence you want to put up for scrutiny? People have had paranormal experiences? How is this different from someone saying 'God did it'?

Care to present one of these paranormal experiences?
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#128  Postby Virus » Mar 06, 2010 9:42 am

NucleicAcid wrote:I thought it was pretty summarized and succinct. But I could probably distill it into a single sentence:

More people have had paranormal experiences than what can be accounted for by chance and coincidence, by an extremely large margin.


Correction, people claim they've had paranormal experiences and nobody can prove these events even happened. That's just the beginning of what's wrong with testimonial evidence. You can't control for suggestion, bias, the need to please researchers, poor memory, exaggerated memory and a slew of other limitations. Go and ask 1000 people if they've ever seen a ghost of a dead relative and all you'll have is an opinion poll. This stuff is skepticism 101. You talk about how you're all "scientific" and "not like those other woo-woos" but your claims are no different.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#129  Postby jerome » Mar 06, 2010 12:55 pm

Hey Virus - ghost are by their nature spontaneous phenomena, but I di refer you to the apparitions in the lab link. Were you part of the ganzfeld experiment discussion on the old forum? I don't really want to rehash it here...
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#130  Postby NucleicAcid » Mar 06, 2010 6:15 pm

Virus wrote:Correction, people claim they've had paranormal experiences and nobody can prove these events even happened. That's just the beginning of what's wrong with testimonial evidence. You can't control for suggestion, bias, the need to please researchers, poor memory, exaggerated memory and a slew of other limitations. Go and ask 1000 people if they've ever seen a ghost of a dead relative and all you'll have is an opinion poll. This stuff is skepticism 101. You talk about how you're all "scientific" and "not like those other woo-woos" but your claims are no different.


Did you read the article at all? It very clearly stated that it looked at how many people had a specific experience within 12 hours of a relative's death, and compared that to what is expected by chance. And yes, you can control for those variables, that's the whole point of the scientific method, is separating effects caused by what you are looking for, from all other effects. Parapsychologists are probably some of the best when it comes to dealing with issues of anomalistic psychology, since, you know, they study it constantly and use it as a wide-arcing null hypothesis for everything they do.

And again, laboratory studies of ESP are not opinion polls. You know, an experiment? Where you control for variables, then calculate a statistical value for the ratio of systematic over unsystematic variance, in order to estimate the odds of that happening by chance?

And skepticism 101 is exactly what I talked about before in that we don't just go probing stuff with EMF detectors and cameras and declare spooks are about, we try to debunk all the mundane things first.

Do you actually read anything anything we write? Or have you already passed judgment and therefore think you can get away with just making up what you think we said, cause you think we're too stupid to notice?
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. "

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