Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

Discussions on UFOs, ghosts, myths etc.

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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#81  Postby Virus » Mar 04, 2010 4:44 am

NucleicAcid wrote:Yes, there is. There are years of research into ghosts, ESP, telekinesis, and other paranormal phenomena, which, if you look at the whole picture, indicate that there is something going on.


And how many contributions to humanity has 150 years of research brought? None. You can't even identify it in a single individual, just as a statistical anomaly from guessing-games.

The idea of particles behaving as waves depending on the conditions was extremely weird at the time, but people developed the idea, explored it, were eventually able to develop tests to test for it, and now it's accepted as fact and it would be scientific heresy to say that anything else is the truth


Don't compare your silly little ghostbusters group to Planck, Einstein and de Broglie. Just because you've got some journals doesn't make it a real science. My university will give you a degree in Chinese medicine. Doesn't make it a real science. Parapsychology is a joke on par with creationism research.

If you have a student account access to any sort of online journal databases, there is the Journal of Parapsychology, the International Journal of Parapsychology,


Just tried it.... Nope we don't list that shit.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#82  Postby Mac_Guffin » Mar 04, 2010 4:54 am

See, I don't like that "if you dig deep enough" line. It's a bit of a cop-out. When creationists ask me about evolution and its evidence, I come back with a basic summary of why it's true.

I will read those, but I doubt that I'll learn anything new from them. There was a time in my life when I was looking for any inkling of evidence for a life outside my current one (among other things), and none of the articles I read were very impressing. What I did see was a lot of excitement over nothing.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#83  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Mar 04, 2010 4:57 am

NucleicAcid wrote:I think there is a huge body of evidence for the existence of ghosts, and I also think the majority of 'rational thinkers' use their 'rational thinking' to try to make up for how deep their head is in the sand, so rather than even begin to take a look at the evidence (because that would require, oh my gosh, reading things with an open mind and evaluating things based on evidence, not personal opinion!) they just go straight to making silly quips about how unscientific parapsychologists are and how we watch too many movies.

Ah, the scientific method at its finest.


No there isn't! There is, rather, a huge body of evidence for the existence of anomalies. Did you even read my reply to you? You don't know that ghosts exist due to these amomalies because you don't have any fucking clue what a ghost is. An unexplained cold spot is as much evidence for a ghost as it is for a fairy. You have no idea what a ghost is or how it manifests. As such, you can simply claim that any anomaly is a ghost!

They aren't ghosthunters. They are anomaly hunters.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#84  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 04, 2010 5:28 am

So many angry posters.

lol
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#85  Postby Tbickle » Mar 04, 2010 5:35 am

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:So many angry posters.

lol


It gets tiring trying to point out failed logic.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#86  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 04, 2010 6:20 am

Seriously, you're all a bunch of self righteous ignorant asshats.

Like Jerome has said, there is evidence.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#87  Postby Tbickle » Mar 04, 2010 6:22 am

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:Seriously, you're all a bunch of self righteous ignorant asshats.


Self-righteous? No. Ignorant? Sometimes. Asshat? Well, that's subjective.

Like Jerome has said, there is evidence.


Evidence of what exactly? Ghosts or anomolies that require further investigation and explanation?
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#88  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 04, 2010 7:25 am

Self Righteous

–adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

Yes, you are.

Yes, anomalies, that could be a number of things, 1 being ghosts. This whole argument has been about the possibility of there being ghosts. I don't see anyone on this thread saying that there are ghosts. But I see a few people saying they believe there aren't ghosts.
Okay that's all fine and dandy, live in ignorance, it's not my problem.
But then you've got wankers like yourself that seem to be disguising your disbelief through trying to make us think you're sitting on the fence.
If you were actually sitting on the fence you would be open to all the possibilities, not just 1.
It's like you shine the light on all the arguments against, and ignore the for.
Now tell me, who has more evidence in this seemingly never ending argument ? and where does that evidence point ?
Like i said, a number of possibilities, so do not laugh off the idea of ghosts.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#89  Postby Spearthrower » Mar 04, 2010 7:52 am

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:that nobody really seems to know much about.

Okay first things first, I am an atheist, but I do believe in spirits or whatever you want to call them. Many other Atheist's have called me "ignorant", "stupid" for believing in such things, but I simply cannot dismiss them as "a figment of the human imagination". There are simply too many sightings, too much video footage and other documented encounters for me to say they don't exist. I like to keep an open mind on these types of things.
I know a great percentage of them are fake, but what about the rest.

Is it possible these "things" can be explained through science if given proper research?



I fear that in many ways they already have been explained by modern science, it's just that science cannot ever rule out every single phenomenon so a public perception continues to exist that there are more reports that haven't been addressed by science. More than anything else, these are effectively random phenomena, like UFO's, and are therefore difficult to do experiments on. However, there have been numerous cases where scientists have tried to detect these sources, and they have never validated anything worth enquiry.

For me, if you believe that there are such thing as ghosts and spirits, then you really need to consider why this should be. There must be some kind of mechanism operating here that produces these ghosts. Are they human spirits? If so, how is it that there are not billions of ghosts we bump into all the time? There should be a lot more sightings. What are these things made of? Where do they go when they are not visible to people?

My experience leads me to think that they are the products of an imaginative mind seeing patterns that are not there.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#90  Postby Virus » Mar 04, 2010 8:11 am

Give us the absolute best piece of evidence you have for the existence of ghosts. Please make it as succinct as possible.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#91  Postby tnjrp » Mar 04, 2010 8:18 am

Spearthrower wrote:I fear that in many ways they already have been explained by modern science, it's just that science cannot ever rule out every single phenomenon so a public perception continues to exist that there are more reports that haven't been addressed by science. More than anything else, these are effectively random phenomena, like UFO's, and are therefore difficult to do experiments on. However, there have been numerous cases where scientists have tried to detect these sources, and they have never validated anything worth enquiry.

For me, if you believe that there are such thing as ghosts and spirits, then you really need to consider why this should be. There must be some kind of mechanism operating here that produces these ghosts. Are they human spirits? If so, how is it that there are not billions of ghosts we bump into all the time? There should be a lot more sightings. What are these things made of? Where do they go when they are not visible to people?

My experience leads me to think that they are the products of an imaginative mind seeing patterns that are not there.
Now here's a post after my own opinion on the issue! :cheers:

Although I'd like to again
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of not automatically assuming that if A is true, then B that I have somewhat arbitrarily decided must be associated with A also must be true. Eg. if hauntings were found to be something out of the mundane (if potentially exotic and rare), then spirits of the dead must exist.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#92  Postby -Sylvan-Shadow- » Mar 04, 2010 8:52 am

Virus wrote:Give us the absolute best piece of evidence you have for the existence of ghosts. Please make it as succinct as possible.


:lol: are you kidding me ?

That was great.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#93  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Mar 04, 2010 10:59 am

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:
Virus wrote:Give us the absolute best piece of evidence you have for the existence of ghosts. Please make it as succinct as possible.


:lol: are you kidding me ?

That was great.


I don't see what your problem is with his request. What is, in your mind, the best piece of evidence that you have seen for the existence of ghosts?
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#94  Postby jerome » Mar 04, 2010 11:23 am

I'll play if you want? I'd go for the Report on the Census of Hallucinations (1894) and the follow ups, which contain many analysed cases...

Sidgwick, H. (1894). Report on the Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 10, 25-422
West, D.J. (1948). Mass-Observation Questionnaire on Hallucinations. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 34, 187-196
West, D.J. (1990). A Pilot Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 57(215), 163-207
West , D.J. (1995). Notes on a Recent Psychic Survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research

All are available on LEXSCIEN - http://www.lexscien.org/lexscien/index.jsp where under "pricing" tab a one week free trial is given. You should be able to read most of the above in your 1000 pages of free viewing.

People seem to be invoking hallucination a lot in this thread, but i wonder how many actually have familiarity with the neurological, psychiatric, psychological and medical literature. Best introductory text is at the moment is Aleman, A. & Larøi. F. (2008) Hallucinations: The Science of Idiosyncratic Perception. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. I have been working in the field for twenty three years now, so I have a pretty good idea of the literature, and of course my vocational background is in mental health.

You want me to isolate a couple of cases to discuss?

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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#95  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Mar 04, 2010 11:28 am

jerome wrote:I'll play if you want? I'd go for the Report on the Census of Hallucinations (1894) and the follow ups, which contain many analysed cases...

Sidgwick, H. (1894). Report on the Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 10, 25-422
West, D.J. (1948). Mass-Observation Questionnaire on Hallucinations. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 34, 187-196
West, D.J. (1990). A Pilot Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 57(215), 163-207
West , D.J. (1995). Notes on a Recent Psychic Survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research

People seem to be invoking hallucination a lot in thsi thread, but i wonder how many actually have familiarity with the neurological, psychiatric, psychological and edical literature. Best introductory text is at the moment is Aleman, A. & Larøi. F. (2008) Hallucinations: The Science of Idiosyncratic Perception. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.


Jerome, where do I go to actually read those articles?

I actually don't rely so much upon the hallucination angle as some others may. As I said earlier in the thread, I believe that in many cases people are seeing something, they are simply misinterpretting what they have seen. Much like one may mistake Venus for being some kind of spacecraft.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#96  Postby jerome » Mar 04, 2010 11:36 am

Crocodile Gandhi wrote:
Jerome, where do I go to actually read those articles?

I actually don't rely so much upon the hallucination angle as some others may. As I said earlier in the thread, I believe that in many cases people are seeing something, they are simply misinterpretting what they have seen. Much like one may mistake Venus for being some kind of spacecraft.



LEXSCIEN - it's free for a week or so I believe. If not email me.

And absolutely - there is a difference between a hallucination and a misperception (illusion), and I agree wholeheartedly - the majority of 'ghost' accounts are probably misperceptions, or illusions. The problem is people try to create a "theory of everything" for ghost cases - where I suspect "ghosts" are a false category in the first place, simply comprising many unrelated phenomena, many understood, others less so. I'll cheerfully arrange access to some of the better material if you are interested - but this is probably useful

http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... er-on.html
http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... rimer.html
http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... er_18.html
http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... er_23.html
http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... rimer.html
http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.co ... ories.html

I think virus wants case studies. I'll chuck a couple up on my return - have to dash :)

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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#97  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Mar 04, 2010 11:47 am

Thanks, mate. I'll give those a look later.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#98  Postby Virus » Mar 04, 2010 12:26 pm

jerome wrote:
Sidgwick, H. (1894). Report on the Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 10, 25-422
West, D.J. (1948). Mass-Observation Questionnaire on Hallucinations. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 34, 187-196
West, D.J. (1990). A Pilot Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 57(215), 163-207
West , D.J. (1995). Notes on a Recent Psychic Survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research


Your absolute best evidence for ghosts is a questionnaire?
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#99  Postby Virus » Mar 04, 2010 12:29 pm

-Sylvan-Shadow- wrote:
Virus wrote:Give us the absolute best piece of evidence you have for the existence of ghosts. Please make it as succinct as possible.


:lol: are you kidding me ?

That was great.


So you can't do it? Knock me down with a feather.
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Re: Ghosts, spirits, those unexplained things....

#100  Postby jerome » Mar 04, 2010 1:35 pm

Virus wrote:
jerome wrote:
Sidgwick, H. (1894). Report on the Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 10, 25-422
West, D.J. (1948). Mass-Observation Questionnaire on Hallucinations. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 34, 187-196
West, D.J. (1990). A Pilot Census of Hallucinations. Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research 57(215), 163-207
West , D.J. (1995). Notes on a Recent Psychic Survey. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research


Your absolute best evidence for ghosts is a questionnaire?


No it's a 450+ page analysis of the results of a census! :)

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