Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

A little daily exorcise should help

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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#21  Postby BlackBart » Feb 28, 2013 9:06 pm

Yeah, but the wind blowing in the grass is demonstrable.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#22  Postby campermon » Feb 28, 2013 9:22 pm

BlackBart wrote:Yeah, but the wind blowing in the grass is demonstrable.


Yes, but in the mind of a prey animal it's a predator and so the fright/ flight response is invoked.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#23  Postby Scarlett » Feb 28, 2013 9:25 pm

Why do I get so freaked out by scary movies (especially one's with creepy kids) when I am 100% sure ghosts etc do not exist?
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#24  Postby campermon » Feb 28, 2013 9:30 pm

Scarlett wrote:Why do I get so freaked out by scary movies (especially one's with creepy kids) when I am 100% sure ghosts etc do not exist?


Scary movies are playing with the reptilian part of your brain. :mrgreen:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#25  Postby Scarlett » Feb 28, 2013 9:35 pm

campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Why do I get so freaked out by scary movies (especially one's with creepy kids) when I am 100% sure ghosts etc do not exist?


Scary movies are playing with the reptilian part of your brain. :mrgreen:


I'm not a fucking reptile :(

I'm getting worse with scary movies, it's getting to the stage that I don't want to watch them, but do anyway :shifty:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#26  Postby campermon » Feb 28, 2013 9:50 pm

Scarlett wrote:
campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Why do I get so freaked out by scary movies (especially one's with creepy kids) when I am 100% sure ghosts etc do not exist?


Scary movies are playing with the reptilian part of your brain. :mrgreen:


I'm not a fucking reptile :(

I'm getting worse with scary movies, it's getting to the stage that I don't want to watch them, but do anyway :shifty:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_bra ... an_complex

:lol:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#27  Postby BlackBart » Feb 28, 2013 10:02 pm

campermon wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Yeah, but the wind blowing in the grass is demonstrable.


Yes, but in the mind of a prey animal it's a predator and so the fright/ flight response is invoked.

So, the evolutionary advantage is fear of imaginary lions, not phantoms. I think the evolutionary explanation of belief in ghosts is that young need to be naturally incredulous so they automatically believe warnings of danger from more experienced elders.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#28  Postby Scarlett » Feb 28, 2013 10:04 pm

campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:
campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Why do I get so freaked out by scary movies (especially one's with creepy kids) when I am 100% sure ghosts etc do not exist?


Scary movies are playing with the reptilian part of your brain. :mrgreen:


I'm not a fucking reptile :(

I'm getting worse with scary movies, it's getting to the stage that I don't want to watch them, but do anyway :shifty:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_bra ... an_complex

:lol:


:lol:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#29  Postby campermon » Feb 28, 2013 10:06 pm

BlackBart wrote:
campermon wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Yeah, but the wind blowing in the grass is demonstrable.


Yes, but in the mind of a prey animal it's a predator and so the fright/ flight response is invoked.

So, the evolutionary advantage is fear of imaginary lions, not phantoms. I think the evolutionary explanation of belief in ghosts is that young need to be naturally incredulous so they automatically believe warnings of danger from more experienced elders.


Yup. I'd imagine that both play a part. We've got vastly more imaginative brains than our distant ancestors, but we still retain all those primitive bits which turn bumps in the night into all sorts of scary stuff!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#30  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 01, 2013 12:15 am

My apology to all! I have apparently lost my last post, which responds to your comments! If it doesn’t show up in a bit (assuming it was delayed for approval) I will repost it! Thank you all for all of your lucid comments and observations! You cannot imagine how rare they are when discussing anything outside of the accepted doctrine! Could this be the fabled zealot and troll-free zone?


(Second attempt at posting)

I will try to respond where clarification is necessary:



I am suggesting that once you logically rule out everything that can be eliminated, (which is almost never done) and then take into account the kinds of events, environments, and observers, as described by the observers themselves as facilitating the, I believe, completely subjective experience of ghosts and hauntings, you find that the only sensory apparatus one needs is functioning nose, and that all of the variables and elements that facilitate the subjective experience are exactly the same events, environments, and observers, known to facilitate odor retention, storage, distribution, and detection.


Are there ghosts and hauntings? Not if by that you mean energy based, non-corporeal consciousness. The ghosts and haunting of which I speak represent only the current terms popularly used to describe the purely subjective experience, which occurs under fairly specific conditions all of which are identical to the kind that facilitates and ultimately triggers a very particular and important adaptation which we happen to possess despite popular belief and social conditioning to the contrary.


The, “ghosts and hauntings” that I, “see, so to speak” are undetectable in the visible or any other part of the spectrum of energy, (reason for dismal lack of evidence and failure to produce a sollution) but rather have always been (until now?) a purely subjective phenomenon, that is triggered by fatty, waxy, odorous molecules, that can be absorbed and intermittently released in any variety of natural and man-made environments, and which we and countless other species in our direct line of evolution have adapted (in a completely different environment) to sense with only slight variation as is relevant to any particular species.


When thinking in evolutionary terms it is important to remember that we, as a species only left the natural world of the, nomadic hunter-gatherer, and all of the associated selection pressures therein, a mere, 15,000 – 20, 000 years ago. Yet, we have remained virtually genetically and behaviorally unchanged for at least 50,000 and possibly as much as 75,000 years. In the absence of the selection pressures and context of this adaptation it was easy to forget and become confused about its purpose, or what it might look like in our fabricated world, and this almost undoubtedly lead directly to the mythological explanations. Yet, even here we can apply the, “believer’s” assertion that, “sensing ghosts and hauntings is an ancient and forgotten ability utilizing a sense possessed by all but only developed by a few.” Just replace the terms, “ghosts and hauntings” with con-specific markers of death, stress, and predation, and, “a sense” with human olfactory system, and there is no longer conflict.


It’s funny that you mentioned that particular scenario! You often run into this one when investigating the current theories in the social sciences, but it doesn’t make sense unless you add the missing piece. The rustle of the grass by itself is meaningless, but if that wind also carries the scent of the predator, and if you are truly unfortunate, the con-specific markers of a man-eater as well, it become life and death! Of course, predators vary from place to place, but the specific scent of death of any particular species does not. When we smell something it is accepted, at least at the level of our, “low road” process, as reality because unlike any of our other senses, olfactory stimulus occurs from direct contact with the thing it senses.

If we can extract anything meaningful from Wiseman’s research in the Haunted Vaults, it is that even without reported foreknowledge individuals will consider a specific place within an environment that has a history of ghost and haunting phenomenon associated with it, “haunted” more often than a location not historically associated. Wiseman, I believe, knew this already and thought that this may be secondary to environmental variables such as; variations in temperature, light levels, room size, sound levels, etc., but he failed to get supporting results at the second location. (Palace) I believe that Wiseman’s experiment failed because, although he was on the right track, the cultural blind spot surrounding scent and olfaction got in the way and was therefore not even considered. However, since he managed to rule-out just about every other sense we are left with a likely suspect! :thumbup:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#31  Postby electricwhiteboy » Mar 11, 2013 4:35 pm

BlackBart wrote:
campermon wrote:
BlackBart wrote:Yeah, but the wind blowing in the grass is demonstrable.


Yes, but in the mind of a prey animal it's a predator and so the fright/ flight response is invoked.

So, the evolutionary advantage is fear of imaginary lions, not phantoms. I think the evolutionary explanation of belief in ghosts is that young need to be naturally incredulous so they automatically believe warnings of danger from more experienced elders.


A healthy belief in the "Thing That Can Kick Your Arse." The side of a lake doesn't look dangerous to most kids and they can't imagine the danger of it. The thing that lives in the lake that can drag them in is far easiser to picture, or for that matter, a total nightmare voiced by Donald Pleasence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonely_Water
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#32  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 6:04 pm

We imagine the ghost, but not the cue (death scent) that causes the psycho-physiological reaction! This is very real, and our ability to detect it has helped to keep us alive for millions of years! We, like almost everything else, are hardwired to do this. Predators change from place to place, and detecting them must be taught, but the con-specific scent markers of death of your own species do not, which is why virtually all creatures will avoid it. A creature that has to, “think” about it will end up dinner, so it happens below and/or before conscious awareness. This becomes obvious when you realize that unlike all our other senses, olfaction is so ancient that it is wired directly into our limbic system, memory, and emotions. We react to it before we know why, if ever.

Now we fast forward to our modern world where there are no predators and we go into a building where a violent death has occurred. The sensitive, (the canaries in the coal mine) will detect the trigger first, and they will trigger a response among others who have not or cannot detect the cue. This is exactly how it has always been! Its funny how once we arrived in this modern world of our own construction, we forgot that the other 99% of the time we were out there in some form, and it was that world we evolved to, not this one! You must understand what it meant to our caveman ancestors, and realize that the only thing that has changed is the environment. The materials we build with are, at the microscopic level, sponges for these chemical cues, and are perfect for artificially protecting, storing, and intermittently releasing them in exactly the patterns described by the believers.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#33  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 6:13 pm

electricwhiteboy wrote:
A healthy belief in the "Thing That Can Kick Your Arse." The side of a lake doesn't look dangerous to most kids and they can't imagine the danger of it. The thing that lives in the lake that can drag them in is far easiser to picture, or for that matter, a total nightmare voiced by Donald Pleasence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonely_Water


I remember seeing this on TV!

:shock:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#34  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 7:09 pm

Maxtonight wrote:We imagine the ghost, but not the cue (death scent) that causes the psycho-physiological reaction! This is very real, and our ability to detect it has helped to keep us alive for millions of years!


I'd like to see some evidence for this.

Purely anecdotal, but nearly a couple of years ago my mom died at home in her bed. I was there at the time. Now, considering your hypothesis concerning the death scent, I should get the heeby jeebies if i visit that bedroom. I've been there numerous times and have had no such feelings.

:cheers:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#35  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 11, 2013 7:24 pm

I have had a similar experience too. I guess neither of us are the 'canaries', which makes the hypothesis unfalsifiable afaics.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#36  Postby BlackBart » Mar 11, 2013 7:35 pm

You'd think that no-one would go near London. What with the Plague, the great fire, Jack the Ripper, the Blitz and 7/7, it must postively reek of 'death scent'. But, no, we all happily bumble around it, clutching our Starbuck coffees, as though nothing happened.
Maybe someones been around with a bottle of Febreeze? :ask:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#37  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 7:43 pm

:rofl:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#38  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 7:56 pm

I am so sorry for your loss! Truly I am! I lost my mother too, two years ago after a long illness, and I can still often smell her here, where she spent her final years, when the conditions are favorable. Being the only person in my family with a medical background, I got the job, but I would not have had it any other way. I can also smell the damn dogs from a previous owner, as well as some loud perfume, that permeated the bathroom cupboards, too! (Over 15 years ago)

You must understand that the ability to detect this will not be the same for everyone! There is no less than a 15% variation in our olfactory repertoire between any two individuals and as much as several orders of magnitude in sensitivity. Men are generally the least sensitive. Women are better, children are better still, and pregnant women are the best of all! No surprise here! It very well may be that you cannot detect it because the con-specifics did not have a chance to penetrate the environment, which usually requires fluid absorption into the substrate of the structure. In addition, sociopaths will not sense it at all!

You can find abstracts of the research on the, Harvard Medical Journal, website as well as the, Oxford Medical Journal website, among others, and there is an interesting study done for the CIA that has been declassified, and can be found on their site as well! The later study was to evaluate chemo-detection for personal identification and its potential for crowd control and manipulation.

I’ll post the links as soon as I find my back up files! Curiously, I contracted a computer virus just after I started posting my perspective, and it destroyed my hard drive!

I’m curious, did you, or whomever else is present in this location, ever experience sleep paralysis while sleeping there? The reason I ask is because I think this is also very likely an adaptation gone haywire!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#39  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 8:07 pm

It’s funny that you should mention London, one of the more haunted places on earth! I challenge you to think about the Dark Ages, when evil spirits were abound, and death was everywhere! Curiously, during this time, there were also epidemics of sleep paralysis that plagued whole towns for months at a time! This still happens in war-torn places today! Conscious awareness may limit or prohibit the alarm going off, but I believe that our subconscious still thinks predator and triggers an adaptation that gives you advantage by causing you to be still! This makes sense when you consider that most of the predators that ate our ancestors, hunted by vision, and are genetically programmed to attack the first thing that runs!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#40  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 8:11 pm

Maxtonight wrote:
I’m curious, did you, or whomever else is present in this location, ever experience sleep paralysis while sleeping there? The reason I ask is because I think this is also very likely an adaptation gone haywire!


No.

I have had sleep paralysis once many years ago. I was having a nap in an armchair (prolly a Sat / Sun afternoon) when my kids were little. I was awoken suddenly by one of them making a loud noise (I can't recall what). I opened my eyes and was conscious for maybe 10-20 seconds. I was fully aware of what was going on in the room but could not move. I was freaked out for a few seconds, realized what was happening (I'd heard of the phenomena) and decided the best option was to resume sleep!

:)
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