Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#41  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm

Yet, the next family that lives there might claim that they all have experienced it and ghosts as well! That is, of course, assuming the markers are present and that they are not just feeding from the lore. This makes sense as the ability, or lack of, would tend to run in families. This also explains why some family’s claim a house is haunted and others who live there afterwards, never have a problem! It seems that men are generally the worst at detecting this and when they do often become aggressive without explanation. In fact, I believe that much of our unexplained behavior is attributable to a, “caveman” reaction to stimulus no longer relevant in our modern world. Don’t believe it? Just watch a nubile eighteen-year-old female walk past a group of men of all ages! Every one of them will watch like predators tracking prey! LOL! This is not because we are dirty old men, but because we are genetically programmed to do so! So much of our behavior can only truly be understood from the perspective of a caveman!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#42  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 8:30 pm

(Second Attmept)

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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#43  Postby BlackBart » Mar 11, 2013 8:39 pm

Maxtonight wrote: This also explains why some family’s claim a house is haunted and others who live there afterwards, never have a problem!


So would the first family having a wild imagination or be just plain lying. We have evidence of people having wild imaginations and also lying, but there is no reproducible evidence of supernatural activity. I'll go with Mr Occam on that.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#44  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 9:33 pm

Redundant post! Deleted! Sorry!
Last edited by Maxtonight on Mar 11, 2013 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#45  Postby Scarlett » Mar 11, 2013 9:40 pm

You're coming up with an awful lot of claims here Max but providing absolutely no evidence. If I'm to believe any of your claims it'll take more than just your lengthy ramblings :coffee:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#46  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 9:43 pm

Scarlett wrote:You're coming up with an awful lot of claims here Max but providing absolutely no evidence. If I'm to believe any of your claims it'll take more than just your lengthy ramblings :coffee:


Will you accept my lengthy ramblings? :naughty2:



:lol:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#47  Postby Scarlett » Mar 11, 2013 9:46 pm

campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:You're coming up with an awful lot of claims here Max but providing absolutely no evidence. If I'm to believe any of your claims it'll take more than just your lengthy ramblings :coffee:


Will you accept my lengthy ramblings? :naughty2:



:lol:


You never miss a chance Mr C :roll:

:lol:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#48  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 9:48 pm

What about my chakras?

:mrgreen:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#49  Postby Scarlett » Mar 11, 2013 9:52 pm

campermon wrote:What about my chakras?

:mrgreen:


That all depends on which chakra you want me to accept :snooty:

:mrgreen:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#50  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Scarlett wrote:
campermon wrote:What about my chakras?

:mrgreen:


That all depends on which chakra you want me to accept :snooty:

:mrgreen:


They don't come separately! :shock:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#51  Postby Scarlett » Mar 11, 2013 10:01 pm

campermon wrote:
Scarlett wrote:
campermon wrote:What about my chakras?

:mrgreen:


That all depends on which chakra you want me to accept :snooty:

:mrgreen:


They don't come separately! :shock:


Meh, not interested then :coffee:
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#52  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 10:14 pm

There is nothing supernatural about it! It is all very natural. The skeptic’s great failing was not in explaining the subjective experience; they just missed the trigger! The subjective experience that occurs in our world is colored by the belief of the individual, but the trigger is real, and has nothing to do with disembodied spirits! Belief alone can get you there, of course, and some think ghosts surround them everywhere. The fact is much of what we accept as, real, is a construct, created moment-to-moment by our minds. This is true for everyone! That’s why, when you approach the stories and lore, you must use the legal criterion of truth, rule out any none corroborated witness accounts, and keep the collectively agreed upon elements. What remains, are only three, a place, human remains, (sometimes microscopic) and an observer. Since the skeptics completely failed to address olfaction as a possible detection mechanism, but ruled out the other four, we also, by process of elimination, can say with confidence that we found our mechanism.

An easy way to think about it is to consider the human experience of love, and compare it to, pair bonding among other species. They may not have, love songs, poetry, chocolate hearts, etc., but pair bonding is as real in nature as it is to us. Once you remove all of the uniquely human mythology surrounding it what remains is the thing in itself. In the case of ghosts and hauntings, once you remove all of the lore and subjectivity, what remains is an almost ubiquitous adaptation that afforded a survival advantage in a world that no longer exists for us.

As far as Occam’s razor:

Think, what requires more supposition? A million people who have had experiences made it up, (two would put you on death row) or the skeptics missed the trigger because a cultural blind spot kept them form considering one of only five sensory possibilities?

PS. My, chakras have been malfunctioning ever since my karma ran over my dogma!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#53  Postby Scarlett » Mar 11, 2013 10:19 pm

Didn't you just post this, minus the 'PS' about 20 minutes ago?

Evidence Max, evidence!
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#54  Postby campermon » Mar 11, 2013 10:20 pm

Scarlett wrote:Didn't you just post this, minus the 'PS' about 20 minutes ago?

Evidence Max, evidence!


Yes.

Perhaps you could start with those citations re: the smell of death.

;)
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#55  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 11, 2013 11:09 pm

What evidence do you require that is any more apparent than the nose on all our faces? Wiseman did a fine job of demonstrating an unknown environmental element was at work, and ruled out all other stimuli affecting the other four senses. Isn’t logic a rational criterion for truth anymore? It is known that (absent human mythology) that animals do exactly the same thing under exactly the same conditions. Each of the elements, necessary to proceed with this perspective, is common knowledge and easily verifiable. If you are questioning my assertion about human sensitivity, I have included a link to an abstract you might find illuminating. Not the original research, but well cited and updated! The second link only verifies the first, but clearly demonstrates that it is real enough for the government to consider us, “…vulnerable to intelligence exploitation.” The last, regarding, death scent” is again not the original article that I read, but contains similar information. All this is easy to find if you look!


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC406401/

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... p_0001.htm

http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/10/pe ... ll-of.html
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#56  Postby BlackBart » Mar 11, 2013 11:39 pm


As far as Occam’s razor:

Think, what requires more supposition?


What's required is not 'supposition', but evidence.


A million people who have had experiences made it up, (two would put you on death row) or the skeptics missed the trigger because a cultural blind spot kept them form considering one of only five sensory possibilities?


Evidence would be required for any given claim, if there is none there is no reason to conclude the claim is genuine. That goes for one claim or a million claims.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#57  Postby BlackBart » Mar 11, 2013 11:42 pm

campermon wrote:What about my chakras?

:mrgreen:


Image
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#58  Postby Maxtonight » Mar 12, 2013 12:53 am

Obviously, you are not acquainted with the, “legal” criterion of truth. Perhaps, you should hope that two people never claim to have seen you commit a crime, or you will see exactly how relevant this is in our world, and just as it should be. (Scientists too) The burden of proof against corroborated witness testimony in the legal arena falls upon those in contradiction with the witness testimony, just as it should. (Think DNA evidence) The evidence of the truth of this particular claim, once again, is found in Wiseman’s research, which clearly demonstrated an unknown environmental trigger at work, and by process of elimination, even nailed down the detection mechanism. If Wiseman overlooked this, it is his fault not mine, as I tried to tell him. Of course, it would be a bit embarrassing to have to rebut one’s own books that claim otherwise.


If you would like evidence from a study called, “death-scent makes people see ghosts,” to my knowledge no one has done such a study, yet. However, since the only thing about the skeptics position that I disagree with is their assertion that there is no physical trigger. I need only direct you there, if you need clarification of what happens once a sensitive person is triggered. The only reason the objective evidence of a physical trigger for the subjective affect and experience has not been forthcoming is that nobody knew where to look.

Now we do, and we have a good idea of what it is and how it works, so let’s see if our model fits with the believer’s statements. They claim that the top five most haunted places in the world are:

Catacombs, Paris, France.

New Orleans, Louisiana

Aokigahara Forest, Japan.

Coliseum, Rome, Italy

Underground Vaults, Edinburgh, Scotland.

Now let’s test this mislabeled claim by the believer’s against our model. We must first change the labels:

Haunted place = a place where a messy death has occurred or human remains are present.

Haunted experience = psycho-physiological, and behavioral response associated with death/hazard avoidance as observed throughout nature.

Ghost = (Trigger) con specific markers of death


We need: human remains, a location, and a sensitive observer to produce the target affect.
All of the above locations meet the criteria overwhelmingly! Now, let’s compare the claim of spiritual sensitivity to know olfactory sensitivity:

Children are more sensitive than adults, True
Women tend to be more sensitive than men, True
Pregnant women are the most sensitive group, True.

When one considers the survival implications here, it is evident that this is no accident.
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#59  Postby BlackBart » Mar 12, 2013 10:00 am

Maxtonight wrote:Obviously, you are not acquainted with the, “legal” criterion of truth. Perhaps, you should hope that two people never claim to have seen you commit a crime, or you will see exactly how relevant this is in our world, and just as it should be. (Scientists too) The burden of proof against corroborated witness testimony in the legal arena falls upon those in contradiction with the witness testimony, just as it should. (Think DNA evidence) The evidence of the truth of this particular claim, once again, is found in Wiseman’s research, which clearly demonstrated an unknown environmental trigger at work, and by process of elimination, even nailed down the detection mechanism. If Wiseman overlooked this, it is his fault not mine, as I tried to tell him. Of course, it would be a bit embarrassing to have to rebut one’s own books that claim otherwise.


As far as truth goes I'll go with Indiana Jones; "Science deals with facts, if you want 'truth', the philosophy department is down the hall."

Whether anecdotal evidence is acceptable within the legal profession is the legal profession's problem. It certainly is not acceptable within the scientific method and that is just how it should be.


If you would like evidence from a study called, “death-scent makes people see ghosts,” to my knowledge no one has done such a study, yet.


Then until such time a peer reviewed study appears, one needs to remain sceptical.


However, since the only thing about the skeptics position that I disagree with is their assertion that there is no physical trigger.


Er, no. The sceptical position makes no claim about anything, it merely requires evidence for any positive claim. If there is no evidence for any particular claim, there is no reason to conclude it's fact.


I need only direct you there, if you need clarification of what happens once a sensitive person is triggered. The only reason the objective evidence of a physical trigger for the subjective affect and experience has not been forthcoming is that nobody knew where to look.


Again, no - we cannot state that there is evidence for something until we find it, Stating that there is evidence, but we just haven't found it is fallacious.


Now we do, and we have a good idea of what it is and how it works, so let’s see if our model fits with the believer’s statements. They claim that the top five most haunted places in the world are:

Catacombs, Paris, France.

New Orleans, Louisiana

Aokigahara Forest, Japan.

Coliseum, Rome, Italy

Underground Vaults, Edinburgh, Scotland.



Ok...Assertions that certain locations are 'haunted' are assertions.


Now let’s test this mislabeled claim by the believer’s against our model. We must first change the labels:


We don't have to do anything at all. It's up to the claimant to define what they're claiming and provide evidence to support that claim.


Haunted place = a place where a messy death has occurred or human remains are present.

No. That's merely a place where a messy death occured or human remains are present. You still have to demonstrate that 'haunted' means anything over and above that.
Why would it have to be 'messy'? How would you confirm that a death had occurred any any given location or that no death had occured at any control?


Haunted experience = psycho-physiological, and behavioral response associated with death/hazard avoidance as observed throughout nature.



Ghost = (Trigger) con specific markers of death


We need: human remains, a location, and a sensitive observer to produce the target affect.
All of the above locations meet the criteria overwhelmingly! Now, let’s compare the claim of spiritual sensitivity to know olfactory sensitivity:


Children are more sensitive than adults, True
Women tend to be more sensitive than men, True
Pregnant women are the most sensitive group, True.



When one considers the survival implications here, it is evident that this is no accident.


To be honest, I have no real idea what you are claiming at this point;

Are you claiming that ghosts are real and we evolved sensitivity to them to avoid areas where death is likely to occur?

Or that we evolved the ability to physically detect where death has historically occurred and that we merely believe that that area is haunted?
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Re: Haunted houses: Got ghosts?

#60  Postby electricwhiteboy » Mar 12, 2013 11:24 am

Maxtonight wrote:Underground Vaults, Edinburgh, Scotland.


I live in Edinburgh and I have visited those vaults on about 5 occasions and read heavily on the subject. The vaults are part of a huge bridge called South Bridge in the city centre. The bridge is so large it has buildings on top, and when you are walking across you have no idea you are on a bridge as only one arch is visible.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=South+B ... 41.77,,0,0

There are number of basement pubs built into the bridge itself at the lowest levels, the only difference between the pubs and “haunted” vaults is the decor and the state of the stonework. Thousands of people drink there every week and yet we get almost no reports from the bars, a couple of stories during renovation works from the bar staff 20 years ago then NOTHING. I have spent ten years of my life in that environment, before and after closing time, made friends with and dated people who worked there. No strange equipment malfunctions, no spooky noises through the mikes, no odd noises on the recordings I’ve made in the five different live music venues in the bridge. In fact I’ve played gigs in a bar where the stage is directly BELOW the alleged most haunted point in the complex.

The stories the tour guides tell you inside the haunted vaults are bullshit of the highest order. I can find no historical record of any of them, the most we know is that for a period of time people used to live down there after seep water drove the merchants out of the storage vaults in the middle of the bridge. Everything else they tell you, everything, comes from the experience of tourists visiting the vaults, and the testimony of Mediums. Oh and a group of Wiccans who messed their robes the first time anything remotely spooky happened, and tried to seal the “entity” they experienced in a circle of stones.

The “haunted vaults” are just below street level… a very busy street level. If I had to make an educated guess as to what is causing the phenomena it would be infrasound from the diesel buses that go overhead a have to stop at the traffic lights and bus stops with the engine idling. Or from the three goddamn rock bars that are at either end and right in the middle of the complex with loads of reverberating vaulted chambers in between. Another plausible explanation is EMF from the power grid and street lighting that is directly overhead. Telling spooky stories in such a location to suggestible people who have come to be scared, combined with the airlessness down there would be enough to trigger "ghostly" experiences without having to look for any other explanation.

In short I have spent a decade in one of the most haunted locations worldwide, and experienced nothing unusual, nor even heard ONE convincing story about the place happening in that time.
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