Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

Pi, e and alpha found in the Masoretic/Textus Receptus

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#281  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Apr 01, 2016 9:02 am

No BT, believing is not seeing. The saying is the other way around.
And you've repeatedly demonstrated to have no interest in the truth by;
1. Ignoring valid rebuttals to and refutations of your many assertions.
2. Mindlessly regurgitating said refuted assertions.
3. Straw-manning and otherwise attacking your interlocutors.
4. Mindlessly repeating said straw-men even after being corrected.

And those are just a few examples.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#282  Postby chairman bill » Apr 01, 2016 9:11 am

That list sounds an awful lot like trolling. Not actual trolling, just a bit like trolling.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#283  Postby TopCat » Apr 01, 2016 9:23 am

I've been thinking about this, and after much consideration, I've come to the conclusion that despite my earlier objections, Blue Triangle is completely right in his assessment of the amazing coincidence of pi and e appearing in scripture like this.

I can't imagine how I could have been so comprehensively wrong, and will be reassessing things. I may even be returning to religion.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#284  Postby Arnold Layne » Apr 01, 2016 9:25 am

blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

You sure didn't come here to bridge that gap. Not that it can be, so chalk one up for your smarts. But I have a serious question for you, now, which is what's to be gained from discussing the gap. I have no problem with it, as I've said. But you seem to think animus is being directed at the woo hypothesis, when it's just being directed at the pushers of woo, who turn it into a business. If you can answer the question about what's to be gained, besides breathing room for pushers uncomfortable with the animus, then maybe we can address each other civilly.


Seriously, I honestly came here to discuss this very issue. It's of vital importance to me and I am sure you'll agree, for the human race and indeed life everywhere.


No, BT, if if don't think it's of vital importance, you're going to have to do more than state that it's of vital importance. I know that's what you believe, but I don't care what you believe. Now, you might say that caring what somebody else believes is of vital importance, but there we go again. That's exactly the same as noticing the gap. Neither of us thinks much of terrorists detonating themselves in metro stations; if I think that has something to do with religious beliefs and you don't, it's a gap. Islam is an evolution of earlier religion and like all the others, insists that it's the only true version. Funny, that sounds like what you're saying about Christianity, but like most cherry-pickers in the English-speaking world with which I'm familiar, you think the solution is to cut away, based on your whims. You might say the survival of the human race is contingent on getting spirituality right, but I still don't care. I don't assume the human race was designed to be the culmination of evolution. Look elsewhere for my remarks on humanism, which I indulge no more than I do traditional religion, from which it evolved.


I haven't the time at the moment to answer the rest, but understand that I do appreciate your honesty. However, I need to clarify something here. What I meant by saying the issue is vital is because of the power of belief: believing is seeing. I care about truth and I know you do too, therefore if I am wrong I want to know about it and I assume you are the same - which is why open and honest discussion is vital. Even if I am right about God and my religion or sect teaches hatred or scorn for out-groups, something needs to be done about that religion or sect. It's precisely because people do blow themselves up in metro stations, and detonate nuclear weapons and commit genocide and oppress people of other races because of their beliefs, in a shrinking world, that this issue is so current.

Well, then, have a think, and rather more clearly than you have been doing.

Is belief is a god, whatever god, intrinsically a bad thing? Is disbelief in gods a bad thing? Course not.

Can you prove there is a god? Course not, though you do seem to like to try.

Can we prove there are no gods? Course not. Firstly, you can't prove a negative, so no matter how far science goes, there will never be a proof that there are no gods.

So, what is the source of all this conflict? Why do we care so much what believers believe? It's religions. They are what poison everything. People interpret what they see in scriptures in so many different ways as to make the scriptures pointless and, moreover, dangerous in some cases. You only have to look around and see how many wars have been caused by differences in religious beliefs. Not exclusively religions, I admit, as it seems to be human nature to settle differences by killing our enemy.

And all religions want to control, to have influence over the whole populace, even those who don't believe in god. They profess to be moral, yet show, in many cases, that they are not. They exist, mainly, to ensure their own existence. You call us militant atheists, BT, yet look at the behaviour of organised religions. And you say you are in support of religions in general. What, all of them? Buddhism? Mormonism? scientology? Radical Islam?

And your behaviour here, not addressing people's points, not answering their questions, not admitting your errors, and desperately trying to find places which prove your god exists, shows you haven't grasped the fundamental thing about believing in God. And that is that it's your personal god, your way of life, and trying to find evidence for him in other people's experiences, like that Hugh Whatshisface fella that professed to seeing Jesus, and trying to find numbers in text, just smacks of desperation and lack of faith. Try to be a bit more humble, listen a bit.

We couldn't care less if you believe in a god or not. But you should really believe for the right reasons, not in these hilarious attempts which just show your ignorance.

Really, have a think about it.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#285  Postby tuco » Apr 01, 2016 9:30 am

How one person, opinions of one person respectively, can cause so much hmm debate is beyond me.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#286  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 9:34 am

blue triangle wrote: However, I need to clarify something here. What I meant by saying the issue is vital is because of the power of belief: believing is seeing.


Eye witness testimony is one of the worst form's evidence. It is only worthwhile if it can be independently verified that you did, in fact, see what you say you saw.

blue triangle wrote:Even if I am right about God and my religion or sect teaches hatred or scorn for out-groups, something needs to be done about that religion or sect.


Which can be done without any need to try and address the issue of a deity's existence.

blue triangle wrote: It's precisely because people do blow themselves up in metro stations, and detonate nuclear weapons and commit genocide and oppress people of other races because of their beliefs, in a shrinking world, that this issue is so current.


Well indeed. If people didn't go round believing in nonsense concepts like "god" and "heaven" and believed that they can get to "heaven" faster by blowing themselves up, we might see less of such atrocities. We'd see less in the way of atrocities if thin skinned fuck witted primitives didn't interpret criticism of their religion as a criticism of themselves and promptly went off to shoot up a satirical magazine.

If you're serious about tackling those problems, then you have the wrong argument for this audience. Indeed, you have the wrong argument and the wrong audience.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#287  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 9:35 am

tuco wrote:How one person, opinions of one person respectively, can cause so much hmm debate is beyond me.


They're not causing much debate. They're not causing any debate, because the facts are not remotely in contention. They're prompting a lot of comments, that isn't the same as debate.

This simple misunderstanding on your part probably explains why this all seems "beyond you."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#288  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 10:02 am

blue triangle wrote:However, I need to clarify something here. What I meant by saying the issue is vital is because of the power of belief: believing is seeing. I care about truth and I know you do too, therefore if I am wrong I want to know about it and I assume you are the same - which is why open and honest discussion is vital.


I haven't told you what my 'beliefs' are. Therefore, you can't assume I have any. I can tell you what my observations are, and you can try to tell me what's wrong with them. As I posted previously, if I am wrong about something, first I want to know what the consequences of being wrong are. If the consequences are just 'being wrong', then so be it. I don't care if you think I'm wrong about something we can't both observe, and I don't care if your interpretations of events differ from mine. That fact has no consequence that forces me to act. If I screw up, sometimes (but not always) it's up to me to fix it. When the world offers me consequences that force me to act, then I can act. I don't even ask to be guaranteed success every time that happens. I certainly don't accept your assertion that believing is seeing. Maybe that's true for believers, but I'm not one of those. When believers in God ran the show, lack of belief had consequences that a person had to deal with. This is no longer the case. Not where I live. If that situation changes, I can adapt, and tell people I believe whether or not I do, because I don't believe that there's a God who knows whether or not I'm truthy enough.

blue triangle wrote:Even if I am right about God and my religion or sect teaches hatred or scorn for out-groups, something needs to be done about that religion or sect. It's precisely because people do blow themselves up in metro stations, and detonate nuclear weapons and commit genocide and oppress people of other races because of their beliefs, in a shrinking world, that this issue is so current.


Didn't I just finish telling you I'm not a humanist? Not only do I decline to offer an opinion as to what's best for other individuals, very much including you, I don't claim to know what's best for the human race as a whole, which is only a corollary, scaled up for personal megalomania. I think you need to do what's best for you, and if that involves doing what you're doing here, then so be it, as well. Instead of telling you what you should do, I'll say, "If you want THIS, then try THAT." If it makes you feel important to intone that human conflict feels threatening to you in a crowded world, don't just wave your arms at the gaps. This isn't where the crowd is, and atheism is only adding to the conflict you feel at the moment.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#289  Postby cyghost » Apr 01, 2016 10:03 am

TopCat wrote:I've been thinking about this, and after much consideration, I've come to the conclusion that despite my earlier objections, Blue Triangle is completely right in his assessment of the amazing coincidence of pi and e appearing in scripture like this.

I can't imagine how I could have been so comprehensively wrong, and will be reassessing things. I may even be returning to religion.

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#290  Postby GrahamH » Apr 01, 2016 10:06 am

Sendraks wrote:
blue triangle wrote: However, I need to clarify something here. What I meant by saying the issue is vital is because of the power of belief: believing is seeing.


Eye witness testimony is one of the worst form's evidence. It is only worthwhile if it can be independently verified that you did, in fact, see what you say you saw.


Exactly.

Seeing is believing, but belief is not synonymous with truth. Seeing is very convincing, but you may therefore end up convinced of something false.

Sendraks wrote:
blue triangle wrote:Even if I am right about God and my religion or sect teaches hatred or scorn for out-groups, something needs to be done about that religion or sect.


Which can be done without any need to try and address the issue of a deity's existence.


Agreed. BT's attempt to "demonstrate" that the god of Genesis exists says nothing whatsoever about the relative validity of the many Abrahamic faiths and sects. They all believe in the same god. The differences arose long after the stories in the Torah were created / collated / adapted.

It is farcical to suppose that you could challenge Muslims, Jews, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Anglicans or any of the others with the claim "the god of Genesis is real!". :roll:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#291  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2016 10:11 am

blue triangle wrote:
Thommo wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:How do the errors cancel?


One is an underestimate by 0.0012%. The other is an overestimate by 0.0011%. If we sum these then our estimate of pi + e (pie if you like :grin: ) is underestimated by 0.0001%. The actual error of the summed numbers from the true sum is about 1 in 820000.


It's not, but why let that bother you eh?

pi+e = 5.859874482; pi-approx+e-approx = 5.859867321

Difference = 0.00000716 or about 1 in 140,000

This further convoluted and arbitrary operation doesn't even generate a single extra correct digit.


Thommo, this was your first mistake. I'm not pointing it out to be picky, but because you are continuing to argue and it's obvious that you're wrong here. Yes the difference is 0.00000716, but expressed as a percentage of pi + e, it is not 1 in 140000.


But the "actual error" (yes, those were your words) expressed as a percentage is not the error expressed as a percentage of pi+e. I already said that once if not twice. You're quoting text that contains no error, has been explained multiple times, and yes, that serves absolutely no purpose except to be picky and accuse me of being wrong.

That point was never central to this issue, as I've made abundantly clear. But it's not wrong. Do the calculation. 1 part in 140000 is how much?

blue triangle wrote:"To calculate percentage decrease: First: work out the difference (decrease) between the two numbers you are comparing. Then: divide the decrease by the original number and multiply the answer by 100."

So the percentage decrease is ((pie - pie est.) x 100)/pie = 1.222 x 10E-4. In other words pie est. is 99.9998778 of pie. This is 1 part in 820000. So if you balloon pie up to 820000 the error balloons up to 1.


Percentage decrease = relative decrease. Like I already said, I'm prepared to accept that's what you meant. That doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't make writing "sum" when you mean "quotient" a good idea and it doesn't make writing "pie" when you mean "pi + e" a good idea either.

It's blatantly apparent you aren't trying to resolve this and you aren't trying to communicate clearly. It's utterly inexplicable that you can respond to posts explaining this multiple times and still just carry on as if nothing happened.

You've bailed on yet another point central to your contention to repeat this one. You're ignoring the chances you talked about (and seemingly calculated using the wrong distribution) of finding some given 4 digit string in some number of attempts, you're ignoring the fact that the numbers aren't actually in the text in the first place, these ones are:
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/Pi_File.htm
Code: Select all
90 200 1 5   400 1 6   40 10 40 300 5   400 1   40 10 5 30 1   1 200 2   400 10 300 1 200 2


and
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenki ... uation.htm
Code: Select all
5 50   1 100 600 (fudged)   8 50   70   30 70 3 70 200   20 1 10   70 30 70 3 70 200   8 50   80 100 70 200   300 70 50   9 5 70 50   20 1 10   9 5 70 200   8 50   70   30 70 3 70 200
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#292  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 10:18 am

tuco wrote:How one person, opinions of one person respectively, can cause so much hmm debate is beyond me.


How one person can post over and over again how far beyond him is an understanding of how much debate can be had in English probably has a lot to do with how much easier it is to read a thread than to contribute something substantive. What's happening here, though you may not quite grasp it, is that people are giving their opinions about stuff. Either you don't care about it (in which case, why are you proposing -- albeit obliquely -- to close off discussion?) or you're one of the worst sour-grapes posters I've ever run across. This is your fucking one-note samba, tuco, and we knew what you thought of it, already. You should probably show that you have the writing skills in English to contribute (in order to prove that your failure to contribute is really only the distaste you so love to imply). One of the main functions of this forum is to welcome theists with open arms and then treat them to principled skepticism.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#293  Postby tuco » Apr 01, 2016 10:25 am

I am sour-grapes. People spending time and energy posting their opinions about opinions of blue triangle, while the world is as it is. One-note samba? Perhaps you think your note is different, yet all you have is entertainment, its not even edutainent no more Cito di Pense. This is like watching never ending TV series when I can leave for 5 mins or 5 weeks and do not miss anything as nothing happens. I am sour-grapes and proud.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#294  Postby Fallible » Apr 01, 2016 10:28 am

Sendraks wrote:
tuco wrote:How one person, opinions of one person respectively, can cause so much hmm debate is beyond me.


They're not causing much debate. They're not causing any debate, because the facts are not remotely in contention. They're prompting a lot of comments, that isn't the same as debate.

This simple misunderstanding on your part probably explains why this all seems "beyond you."


I dunno what tuco is doing here. The majority of what I seem to see from that quarter lately is critical commentary on people making comments. What the fuck should be happening on a discussion forum, barber shop choir flashmobs? Late medieval Scandinavian vampire role play? Cheese stick tourneys?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#295  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2016 10:30 am

Pedantry and playing with numbers are my thing.

I'm willing to give the Scandi vampire role play a chance, but I think I'd need lessons. I don't really know where to start.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#296  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 10:37 am

tuco wrote:I am sour-grapes. People spending time and energy posting their opinions about opinions of blue triangle, while the world is as it is. One-note samba? Perhaps you think your note is different, yet all you have is entertainment, its not even edutainent no more Cito di Pense. This is like watching never ending TV series when I can leave for 5 mins or 5 weeks and do not miss anything but nothing happens. I am sour-grapes and proud.


Really, tuco, I could waste a comment to you that would risk a warning from the moderators, but instead I'll ask you just what the fuck it is that you want to happen. That should give you plenty to talk about, but instead of derailing this thread with a pitiful plea for personal attention, why don't you start your own fucking thread on How Tuco Wants The World To Be.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#297  Postby GrahamH » Apr 01, 2016 10:44 am

This is a gem from Mr Jenkins:

These conclusions are further ratified by the discovery that the same eight numerical values are found echoed in the metric dimensions of an abundant modern artefact - the A4 sheet of cut paper!

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/


http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenki ... rkable.htm

A4 paper proves god! (or Satan?) :rofl:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#298  Postby tuco » Apr 01, 2016 10:52 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
tuco wrote:I am sour-grapes. People spending time and energy posting their opinions about opinions of blue triangle, while the world is as it is. One-note samba? Perhaps you think your note is different, yet all you have is entertainment, its not even edutainent no more Cito di Pense. This is like watching never ending TV series when I can leave for 5 mins or 5 weeks and do not miss anything but nothing happens. I am sour-grapes and proud.


Really, tuco, I could waste a comment to you that would risk a warning from the moderators, but instead I'll ask you just what the fuck it is that you want to happen. That should give you plenty to talk about, but instead of derailing this thread with a pitiful plea for personal attention, why don't you start your own fucking thread on How Tuco Wants The World To Be.


Derailing this thread? This thread cannot be derailed. "Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture" are you fucking kidding me. How can such nonsense be derailed? To more nonsense I guess. How many comments I made here before the one you commented on? You do not know ..

Now, perhaps you do not realize it or do not give a fuck but it is my opinion that the world is as it is also because of what is beyond me, this thread. I have to live in this world thus my interest is obvious. Why dont I start thread .. why would I? If I do not like something I say it. I do not need to start my own religion for my own amusement.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#299  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 10:56 am

tuco wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
tuco wrote:I am sour-grapes. People spending time and energy posting their opinions about opinions of blue triangle, while the world is as it is. One-note samba? Perhaps you think your note is different, yet all you have is entertainment, its not even edutainent no more Cito di Pense. This is like watching never ending TV series when I can leave for 5 mins or 5 weeks and do not miss anything but nothing happens. I am sour-grapes and proud.


Really, tuco, I could waste a comment to you that would risk a warning from the moderators, but instead I'll ask you just what the fuck it is that you want to happen. That should give you plenty to talk about, but instead of derailing this thread with a pitiful plea for personal attention, why don't you start your own fucking thread on How Tuco Wants The World To Be.


Derailing this thread? This thread cannot be derailed. "Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture" are you fucking kidding me. How can such nonsense be derailed? How many comments I made here before the one you commented on? You do not know ..

Now, perhaps you do not realize it or do not give a fuck but it is my opinion that the world is as it is also because of what is beyond me, this thread. I have to live in this world thus my interest is obvious. Why dont I start thread .. why would I? If I do not like something I say it. I do not need to start my own religion for my own amusement.


Oh, I don't mind the derails, tuco. What I mind is the derails that have no other function than as pitiful pleas for personal pampering.

tuco wrote:If I do not like something I say it. I do not need to start my own religion for my own amusement.


And perhaps telling people what you don't like may entirely exhaust your discursive abilities to write in English. You're just not very interesting to talk to. In English.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#300  Postby tuco » Apr 01, 2016 10:59 am

That is what you are mistaken about. I appeal .. I do not like you quoting me engaging me in debate. Then again, what do I know? Perhaps you can see what inside my head better than I do. I will think it over.
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