Alan B wrote:In post 593 of the "Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?"
here, I posted the following:
It is the sole responsibility of the theist to provide material evidence of the existence of a ‘god’. The atheist does not need to take any active part in this process but to just metaphorically ‘sit back’ and watch the theists tie themselves in knots.
So far, BT's efforts are confirming this.
The onus is upon the theist to provide evidence of the existence of the god or gods in which they have a belief. This evidence must be peer reviewed and acceptable to believer and non-believer alike. If this evidence is accepted then non-belief and belief with respect to the existence of a supreme deity or deities will be made redundant since they will replaced by knowledge gained by direct observation.
So far, no evidence has been presented.
That's simply a statement. I have presented evidence, which I see you have not engaged with, as I would have expected someone with your background to do.
It is common among theist believers to assume that their belief system imparts ‘knowledge’ to the individual that they then claim is ‘evidence’ that their deity (or deities) exist. They then try to back-up this claim by presenting additional ‘evidence’ – usually in the form of ‘sacred’ or ancient writings – that ‘prove’ that their belief-driven claim is true (usually at the expense of other beliefs). This is delusional.So far, BT's efforts have done nothing to dispel this.
My answer was that the knowledge imparted was numbers from which can be inferred the transcendentals pi and e, and the physical constant alpha, all to fairly high degrees of accurary (excepting the valid point made by others here that they are the first few digits of each number, rather than the numbers themselves). Pi could (just) have been encoded deliberately, but e and alpha could not have been. Furthermore
1. The pi and e 'estimates' are in error by
equal and
opposite amounts, in each case the error in about 1 part in 90000.
2. A simple arithmetic sum ('pi + e') is therefore in error of the true value by only around 1 in 800000.
3. The Alpha 'estimate' is in error by around one part in a million.
4. Considering the sum of the 'estimates' of pi + e + alpha, we find it in error of the true value by about 1 in 20 million.
5. The numerical sum of Genesis 1.1 is 2701, 37 x 73 and a unique triangular number.
6. The sum of John 1.1 is 3627, 39 x 93 and a plinth upon which triangle 2701 can be placed to create triangle 6328, the 112th triangle. 'YHVH Elohim' in Hebrew gematria has a numerical weight of 112.
7. There are many more mathematical wonders therein. A search of Vernon Jenkins' website will show them.
Does none of that interest you? Instead of calling it 'numerology', wouldn't you consider the possibility that it is information?
What I believe it to be evidence for is the interaction of this putative 'non-physical mind' with physical reality, through what religionists call 'divine inspiration'. Physicists like David Bohm and Jack Scarfatti have speculated/hypothesised that this non-physical mind is pure information (omniscience), transcending time and space (omni-presence) and able to interact with physical reality (omnipotence). Now THAT could be the snark itself.
Numerology is crap.
Simple unsupported assertion.
It only seems to be 'workable' with the Latin alphabet and the decimal counting system.
Why do you say that? It certainly 'works' with Hebrew and Greek in the same way. they stand or fall together.
If BT is trying to 'prove' that a god or gods exist by using the Christian Bible and numerology, then the same 'technique' must be valid for all past cultures and their sacred writings since this god is (or gods are) universal for all sentient lifeforms past and present throughout the known universe (allegedly).
I agree. Who said it was just Hebrew? Or the Christian Bible? Muslims say that the number 19, important to them, is encoded within the Quran. And I am not trying to prove anything. I don't think it can be done. I'm trying to show you
evidence of the existence of this non-physical mind. If it was pure information as Bohn asserts about his 'implicate order', wouldn't numbers such as pi and e be expected? They are the two most important transcendental numbers in mathematics. Isn't alpha important in physics and the number quantifying the strength of the interaction of light and matter? Let there be light! Yes, I know you need more than this, but if you have any curiosity at all, wouldn't it be interesting to
find out a little more? There is more, although in a sense you don't need it.
“If you wish to upset the law that all crows are black, you mustn't seek to show that no crows are; it is enough if you prove one single crow to be white.” - William James
To base one's assertion on a single source used by a single belief system is a nonsense when 'dealing' with a universal deity (or deities) that theists claim to have existed for all eternity.
Who is basing it on a single source? That's all I've shown you so far.
Can one get the same, er, 'results' with the Traditional Chinese Character Set and their ancient counting system or Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs with their counting system?
Perhaps, but that has no bearing on whether
this is a result or not.
The fact that some religions are centred around a single God should have no bearing on other religions that believe in multiple gods when attempting to find material evidence for the existence of any of them.
Some Christians will, and have, claimed this is proof of the literal truth of scripture. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's evidence for the interaction between a non-physical mind and physical reality that you asked me to provide. Now sir, your refutation please.