Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

Pi, e and alpha found in the Masoretic/Textus Receptus

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#341  Postby GrahamH » Apr 01, 2016 1:43 pm

blue triangle wrote:What I believe it to be evidence for is the interaction of this putative 'non-physical mind' with physical reality, through what religionists call 'divine inspiration'. Physicists like David Bohm and Jack Scarfatti have speculated/hypothesised that this non-physical mind is pure information (omniscience), transcending time and space (omni-presence) and able to interact with physical reality (omnipotence). Now THAT could be the snark itself.


Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?
Why do you think that?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#342  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 1:47 pm

GrahamH wrote:
blue triangle wrote:What I believe it to be evidence for is the interaction of this putative 'non-physical mind' with physical reality, through what religionists call 'divine inspiration'. Physicists like David Bohm and Jack Scarfatti have speculated/hypothesised that this non-physical mind is pure information (omniscience), transcending time and space (omni-presence) and able to interact with physical reality (omnipotence). Now THAT could be the snark itself.


Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?


It's in the numerology. Or didn't you get the memo? What we don't know yet is why it's evidence of a non-physical mind. Those bible verses look like the scribblings of an ancient (and physical) goat-roaster mind, and Jenkins' numerology looks like the work of a modern (and physical) wannabe-goat-roaster mind. That numerology is the goat-roasting-est. It's trying to get my goat, presumably in order to roast it. Or microwave it, in modern terms. I'm pretty steamed about that, esteemed colleagues.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#343  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 1:53 pm

Well we know the ancient goat roasters were obsessed with numbers and attributed all sorts of divine significance to them. As a species we default to base 10 on the entirely arbitrary basis of the number of fingers we have. I suppose, being in constant possession of the amazement of your fingers that a newborn has, must have made life all kinds of exciting for the numerically obsessed goat-roasters of old.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#344  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 2:02 pm

blue triangle wrote:Thanks for the laugh! Now, take your paranoia and your distrust and whatever else you keep beside the lint in your pocket and go away.


BT, I think you'd have had a slightly more impressive start if you'd started out here as an atheist, and simply asked leading questions about Jenkins' numerology, instead of starting the other thread before this one.

No, I guess that wouldn't have worked, either. You have a tough row to hoe. I believe you called yourself an atheist, at one time, during the life-is-short-then-you-die period. What I don't know is how principled was your atheism. Was it conditioned on the low standards of evidence applied by theists who claim evidence for God? What made you adopt those sleazy standards all of a sudden?

Telling people to go away and quit bothering you is not a robust response. It suggests you're nearing the end of your rope. To express distrust of your anecdotes is mainly to declare the irrelevance of your claim to have been an atheist in the past. That trick has been tried so many times, in such a wide variety of lame apologetics, that the only thing to do with it is doubt its sincerity.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Apr 01, 2016 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#345  Postby GrahamH » Apr 01, 2016 2:02 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
blue triangle wrote:What I believe it to be evidence for is the interaction of this putative 'non-physical mind' with physical reality, through what religionists call 'divine inspiration'. Physicists like David Bohm and Jack Scarfatti have speculated/hypothesised that this non-physical mind is pure information (omniscience), transcending time and space (omni-presence) and able to interact with physical reality (omnipotence). Now THAT could be the snark itself.


Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?


It's in the numerology. Or didn't you get the memo? What we don't know yet is why it's evidence of a non-physical mind. Those bible verses look like the scribblings of an ancient (and physical) goat-roaster mind, and Jenkins' numerology looks like the work of a modern (and physical) wannabe-goat-roaster mind. That numerology is the goat-roasting-est. It's trying to get my goat, presumably in order to roast it. Or microwave it, in modern terms. I'm pretty steamed about that, esteemed colleagues.


Thanks for repeating my point. Unfortunately repetition does not elicit responses from BT so I don't think a few weak puns will help, still, why not?

Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?
Why do you think that?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#346  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 2:04 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?


I think you're jumping the gun. I merely asked why we'd consider it evidence of a non-physical mind in the first place. Parsimony begs us to consider it the work of physical minds.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#347  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 2:06 pm

Sendraks wrote:Well we know the ancient goat roasters were obsessed with numbers and attributed all sorts of divine significance to them. As a species we default to base 10 on the entirely arbitrary basis of the number of fingers we have. I suppose, being in constant possession of the amazement of your fingers that a newborn has, must have made life all kinds of exciting for the numerically obsessed goat-roasters of old.


There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary notation, and those who don't.

:rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance:
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#348  Postby Nicko » Apr 01, 2016 2:09 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Well we know the ancient goat roasters were obsessed with numbers and attributed all sorts of divine significance to them. As a species we default to base 10 on the entirely arbitrary basis of the number of fingers we have. I suppose, being in constant possession of the amazement of your fingers that a newborn has, must have made life all kinds of exciting for the numerically obsessed goat-roasters of old.


There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary notation, and those who don't.

:rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance:


No, there's three: those who count and those who don't.

:snooty:

Regardless, BT's "theory" is no more evidence for a non-physical mind than a fart no one admits to cracking is evidence for non-physical digestion.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#349  Postby GrahamH » Apr 01, 2016 2:16 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?


I think you're jumping the gun. I merely asked why we'd consider it evidence of a non-physical mind in the first place. Parsimony begs us to consider it the work of physical minds.


That is my point, repeated many times now. Even if we take this absurd numerology to be evidence of minds communicating it fails entirely to show those minds to be non-physical, or gods. any number of less fanciful notions of physical minds can be imagined.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#350  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2016 2:20 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Where is the evidence of "non-physical mind"?


I think you're jumping the gun. I merely asked why we'd consider it evidence of a non-physical mind in the first place. Parsimony begs us to consider it the work of physical minds.


That is my point, repeated many times now. Even if we take this absurd numerology to be evidence of minds communicating it fails entirely to show those minds to be non-physical, or gods. any number of less fanciful notions of physical minds can be imagined.


Well, it needs to be repeated. So let's do it again. Belief in God presupposes that God exists, and attempts to prove God using 'evidence' (instead of Thomist arguments, for example, but let's not go there) are mostly attempted by johnny-come-lately types who succumb to theism on whatever excuse, later in life, after they learned to think.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#351  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2016 3:04 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Thommo wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:


As I stated, believing is seeing. You don't don't believe I was ever an atheist, so you don't see what's in front of your eyes.


:scratch:

I quite like this.

-Believing is seeing
-Therefore if you haven't seen you shouldn't believe.

Question: Has Thomas seen you be an atheist?


I don't claim to be an atheist.


You claimed you were an atheist. You said that believing is seeing.

So: Did Thomas see you when you were an atheist and thus should he believe it according to your paradigm "believing is seeing"?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#352  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 3:19 pm

Thommo wrote:

You claimed you were an atheist. You said that believing is seeing.

So: Did Thomas see you when you were an atheist and thus should he believe it according to your paradigm "believing is seeing"?


Whoa now! What's with all the paranoia and distrust? ;)
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#353  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2016 3:21 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Thommo wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

If I understand correctly, among the many errors BT makes is concluding from the (correct) premise that you are more likely to pick the one red ball out of nine in ten tries than in one, that it is less probable for the first ball you pull out to be red than for the tenth one. In each case the odds are 1/9.
I agree. What the fuck are you guys trying to pin on me now?


:scratch:

blue triangle wrote:I said that if you run a large number of trials with different texts, you would expect a clustering of hits at around verse 90000.

blue triangle wrote:As for your second assertion, using the binomial formula, I reckon the following odds for hitting 31415 in 20000 verses, 40000 verses, 60000 verses, etc, up to 200000 verses

p (20000) = 0.176
p (40000) = 0.283
p (60000) = 0.341
p (80000) = 0.365
p (100000) = 0.366
p (120000) = 0.353
p (140000) = 0.330
p (160000) = 0.303
p (180000) = 0.273
p (200000) = 0.244

The maximum probability is at just over 90000 verses in. In other words there is a gentle distribution curve with the peak there (and a positive skew, as expected when the minimum is zero and the maximum infinity). So I have to insist you're wrong there. In other words, if you tested text after text you would see that there would indeed be a clustering of hits at around 90000 words (assuming you had texts that long). It's more gentle than I expected, mind you.


I don't see what's to pin. He accurately described a mistake that's been made, repeated and elaborated upon.

I'm *hoping* that one of your later posts was an acknowledgement that this mistake had been identified.


We'll get to that.

But first, have you admitted to your arithmetical error yet?


I didn't make one (Not that it would matter one iota if I had). I've explained this a whole bunch of times. But here, again, you wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:How do the errors cancel?


One is an underestimate by 0.0012%. The other is an overestimate by 0.0011%. If we sum these then our estimate of pi + e (pie if you like :grin: ) is underestimated by 0.0001%. The actual error of the summed numbers from the true sum is about 1 in 820000. That's one thin slice of pie.

To which I replied:
Thommo wrote:It's not, but why let that bother you eh?

pi+e = 5.859874482; pi-approx+e-approx = 5.859867321

Difference = 0.00000716 or about 1 in 140,000

This further convoluted and arbitrary operation doesn't even generate a single extra correct digit.


So let's work your post through:
-One is an underestimate by 0.0012%. The other is an overestimate by 0.0011%.
This refers to two numbers, which are the relative errors in the so-called estimate of pi quotiented with pi and the estimate of e quotiented with e. That is (1-(3.141554509/3.141592654)) and (1-(2.718312812/2.718281828)).

-If we sum these then our estimate of pi + e (pie if you like :grin: ) is underestimated by 0.0001%.
"these" refers to the two numbers in the previous sentences and this number is a completely meaningless composite.

-The actual error of the summed numbers from the true sum is about 1 in 820000. That's one thin slice of pie.
This does not refer to the previous sentences in any discernible way. If one takes that just derived meaningless composite as a ratio it's 1 in 1,344,822 not 1 in 820,000. Having discarded that meaning I took it at face value and posted the "actual error" expressed as a ratio. You can see this calculation in the post of mine I've just quoted. I have accepted that in fact you did not mean this, what you meant, rather than what you said is that the relative error of the sum of pi(est)+e(est) taken as a quotient over pi+e is about 818,298 which you rounded off to 820,000.

As I've now had to explain ad nauseum this miscommunication was cleared up many posts ago and there's no accidental division or multiplication on my part. I calculated the figure you referred to accurately (and my working is still there for you to double check), but you had a different figure in mind.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#354  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2016 3:23 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Thommo wrote:

You claimed you were an atheist. You said that believing is seeing.

So: Did Thomas see you when you were an atheist and thus should he believe it according to your paradigm "believing is seeing"?


Whoa now! What's with all the paranoia and distrust? ;)


It's my nature. Surprise, ruthless efficiency, paranoia, distrust and pedantry.

Yes. I'm great at parties.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#355  Postby Sendraks » Apr 01, 2016 3:29 pm

Thommo wrote:It's my nature. Surprise, ruthless efficiency, paranoia, distrust and pedantry.

Yes. I'm great at parties.


So was Torquemada. Once he showed at a party, he really lit a fire under the proceedings.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#356  Postby Shrunk » Apr 01, 2016 3:37 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:That's some worthwhile detail, BT, but the details about your circumstances when you had your 'vision' are missing, and even if you gave them, I'd take them with a few grains of salt.


Yes. When assessing the reliability of BT's personal reports of his subjective experiences, we'll have to consider what just happened: I pointed out one of the fatal errors in his argument, he responded by saying "I agree", then just carried on insisting that Thommo was the one who'd screwed up and acting as if BT's argument still had left even a leg upon which to stand. So his grasp of what is going on right before his eyes is, at the very least, suspect.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#357  Postby Shrunk » Apr 01, 2016 3:41 pm

Am I to understand correctly that Animavore's Macbeth example has convinced blue triangle that there is nothing so remarkable in itself about being able to numerologically derive an estimation of pi from a written text, and his "evidence" for an immaterial mind communicating with us now hinges solely on the fact that this occurred in the 1st verse, as opposed to elsewhere, in the Bible?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#358  Postby campermon » Apr 01, 2016 3:46 pm


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
All,

Thread re-opened.

Please be aware that staff are still reviewing some of the reports from this thread and actions may follow.

I thank you in advance for abiding by the FUA and playing nicely with each other.

Cheers
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#359  Postby Gord » Apr 21, 2016 1:10 pm

blue triangle wrote:the power of belief: believing is seeing.

Otherwise known as confirmation bias: http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs....

...This tendency to give more attention and weight to data that support our beliefs than we do to contrary data is especially pernicious when our beliefs are little more than prejudices. If our beliefs are firmly established on solid evidence and valid confirmatory experiments, the tendency to give more attention and weight to data that fit with our beliefs should not lead us astray as a rule. Of course, if we become blinded to evidence truly refuting a favored hypothesis, we have crossed the line from reasonableness to closed-mindedness.

One should avoid the tactic of "believing is seeing" if one wishes to remain impartial.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#360  Postby Svartalf » Apr 19, 2019 10:04 am

Thommo wrote:You know, I heard that Moby Dick predicted the assassination of Martin Luther King jr.

Actually, it predicts death and doom to all living creatures, even white whales.
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