Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

Pi, e and alpha found in the Masoretic/Textus Receptus

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#41  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 5:20 pm

Also, these:
blue triangle wrote: Now I invite you to show me how it is more likely coincidence than a real phenomenon.

Are not mutually exclusive.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#42  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 5:23 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Sendraks wrote:
blue triangle wrote:None of you have even attempted to explain how this phenomenon could have occurred.

Then you're not paying attention. it has been explained and debunked.


blue triangle wrote:Remember, this is evidence (I contend) for the interaction of a non-physical mind with physical matter.

It isn't.


blue triangle wrote:It's either coincidence or intelligent design. If you say its coincidence you are arguing with the low probabilities. When they're that low, and the phenomenon so meaningful, it's more reasonable to accept some kind of teleological process is occurring.

We have

1) The two most important transcendental numbers in mathematics
2) Two of the most important verses in scripture, both first verses of books, one the first verse in the Bible,
3) A combined error of around 1 in a million
4) Two significant triangular numbers.
5) The implied name of God in the larger of the two.
6) The Star of David implied in both (both self intersect, which only 1 in 3 such triangles does).

Internal structure is also reflected in the verses, and especially within Genesis 1.1.


The problem here is that you're working backwards from the conclusions that the scriptures are "important" to anyone outside of those who wish to find them important. To anyone else, they are no more "important" than any other text to which importance could be ascribed and to which similar numerological "wonders" can be applied. It isn't a "meaningful phenomenon" in any sense of the word, once you apply it to any other text. Unless, you know, you apply a status of "meaningful" to said text.


If your thought processes exclude meaning then you may well have a difficult time seeing why it's so significant. Meaning is central to this phenomenon, I'll grant you that.

Stop twisting other people's statements blue triangle.
He did not say your though processses can't include meaning.
He said you can't start an investigation with a presuppsotion and then try to force fit everything to fit that conclusion.


If your partner dies and one day soon after you hear their voice speaking to you as you doze off to sleep, you may ascribe meaning to that event or you may dismiss it as wishful thinking. Neither tell you whether their spirit has actually communicated with you though. So why is this phenomenon important? It's because of the low probability of it happening right at the beginning of the Bible and other significant locations.The first few words of any book are significant in their very primacy. Even if you do not believe in God, you know the Bible is very important at least historically. Even if you can't count to save yourself, you know pi is important. This confluence is what makes it a phenomenon

More vacuous nonsense, posted in an attempt to dodge the point being made. :naughty:
Also stop with the personalised comments.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#43  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 5:29 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

It's not a phenomenon.
Why? Time methinks for you to put your money where your mouth is and not give me a blind assertion. I've shown my evidence. Now I invite you to show me how it is more likely coincidence than a real phenomenon.


How is it a phenomenon?
Is that your answer, essentially a repetition?

Is that your response, more desperate dodging?

blue triangle wrote:The first is the Masoretic text, written in biblical Hebrew, the second is the Textus receptus, written in Koine Greek.



You (or your authority) chose the text. Which papyrus do you choose?
It's the standard version of the Hebrew Bible, the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which uses the Masoretic text. I've seen a copy of that text that was 1000 years old and the letter sequence is exactly the same.[/quote]
You do realise that:
1. There's no such thing as the Jewish bible? That the Talmud and Torah for exampl are two different books?
2.That both books and Judaism are far predate the Medieval period?
3. In other words, that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about?

blue triangle wrote:
transcription is a notoriously error-prone process! There are other scriptures; you know how that works.
The Masoretic text is the standard version. And those old Hebrew scribes maintained strict procedures to ensure perfect copying. Very few errors got through.

More blind assertions and fallacious reasoning. The Catholic bible is also the standard of the Catholic church, yet that book has been edited, cut and retranslated so many times it's far from any original version.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#44  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 5:31 pm

OK, found it:



Your response is anticipated, blue triangle.

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#45  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 30, 2016 5:35 pm

blue triangle wrote:
We have

1) The two most important transcendental numbers in mathematics
2) Two of the most important verses in scripture, both first verses of books, one the first verse in the Bible,
3) A combined error of around 1 in a million
4) Two significant triangular numbers.
5) The implied name of God in the larger of the two.
6) The Star of David implied in both (both self intersect, which only 1 in 3 such triangles does).

Internal structure is also reflected in the verses, and especially within Genesis 1.1.


You got seven or eight digits at best. How many binary bits do you need to encode it, given that BCD requires four bits per decimal place? What's that, thirty bits or so. Think of the odds. Now think of how many texts there are, and see if you can figure out some other sequence of thirty bits in an encoded text that works out to the first few decimal digits of pi. Not so impressive any more, is it? Bring the pain with that info theory, BT. You can do it. Just not very well.

Again, try to get some perspective on your bibliolatry.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#46  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 5:35 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
blue triangle wrote:
blue triangle wrote:Even if you can't count to save yourself, you know pi is important.


Approximations are conveniences, BT. Of all the texts in the world, you chose those, but a random sequence of ten decimal digits (given all the ways of generating it) is fairly easy to come by. Why decimal digits? Because it's convenient? Choices, choices! My goodness. I'm not angry because your message ruffles my atheism, but because it treats me as if I were an idiot.
I'm sorry you're angry, but I'm showing you all this as evidence of the presence, the universal presence (just as Christians say) of a non-physical mind,

Yet another example that you don't know what you're talking about.
God as a non-physical mind is a very recent notion that has no basis in Christian theology, nor is the notion that most Christians hold to.

blue triangle wrote:one that can operate across time and space

How does he do this and how do you know this?

blue triangle wrote:to achieve miracles (and this is surely a standing miracle, as Mr. Jenkins asserts) and one that has all knowledge.

Miracle is just another word for magic and why should I care what Mr. Jenkins asserts?

blue triangle wrote: In other words, this non-physical mind appears to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. :grin:

If god is omniscient, he'd already know that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree, demonstrating that he set them up to fail and punished them not only for something they could not know was wrong, but for doing something god knew before hand they would not be able to not-do.

If god is omnipotent, why does he not stop the devil from influencing mankind?
Why does he not save innocent children from war and natural disasters?
Why does he not demonstate his existence to all of mankind to stop all these religious wars?
And, that would not violate free will, as people would still be free to reject belief and worship.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#47  Postby campermon » Mar 30, 2016 5:37 pm

Shrunk wrote:OK, found it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U3c4zxcydw

Your response is anticipated, blue triangle.

:coffee:


Nice!

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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#48  Postby TopCat » Mar 30, 2016 5:39 pm

The approximations aren't even very good - pi isn't right to even 5 decimals, and e isn't right even to 4. Not to mention the arbitrary factors 10^17 and 10^40 in the results.

Don't you think that if God was going to demean himself with this sort of buggering about, he'd go to a little trouble and get the numbers bang on? To at least a number of decimals well beyond the computing ability of the people that wrote down his word?

There are lots of rational approximations to pi that are a damn sight better than this one -

3126535 / 995207 for instance.

Find a woo-woo numerological way of getting those numbers, and Bob's your uncle.

But this is just pathetic. Quite apart from the fuckwittery of numerology, this is a simple case of people's tendency to spot patterns, and not even very good ones.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#49  Postby campermon » Mar 30, 2016 5:49 pm

TopCat wrote:The approximations aren't even very good - pi isn't right to even 5 decimals, and e isn't right even to 4. Not to mention the arbitrary factors 10^17 and 10^40 in the results.

Don't you think that if God was going to demean himself with this sort of buggering about, he'd go to a little trouble and get the numbers bang on? To at least a number of decimals well beyond the computing ability of the people that wrote down his word?

There are lots of rational approximations to pi that are a damn sight better than this one -

3126535 / 995207 for instance.

Find a woo-woo numerological way of getting those numbers, and Bob's your uncle.

But this is just pathetic. Quite apart from the fuckwittery of numerology, this is a simple case of people's tendency to spot patterns, and not even very good ones.


^This post wins.

I'm thirsty. :beer:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#50  Postby Scar » Mar 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Pathetic theistic fail like this is just so sad.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#51  Postby blue triangle » Mar 30, 2016 6:06 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
blue triangle wrote:It's the standard version of the Hebrew Bible, the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.


So you fucking say. Who made it the 'standard version'? You did! You don't fucking know who made it the standard version.


I'm going to refrain from making any smart-arsed comments here (but you know I could :evilgrin: ). Here's the wikipedia article on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text


blue triangle wrote:The Masoretic text is the standard version.


Cito di Pense wrote:So you fucking say. Would you care to present your seminary credentials, because they're worth fucking crap to me. You have a lot to fucking learn about fucking bibliolatry.
I have no seminary credentials whatsoever. None. Zero. They are infinitesimal. I'm a layperson. But they'd be worth nothing to you anyway.

blue triangle wrote:And those old Hebrew scribes maintained strict procedures to ensure perfect copying. Very few errors got through.


Cito di Pense wrote:So you fucking say, with the hollow voice of assumed authority.
Its well known, even by laypersons like me. :mrgreen:

blue triangle wrote:The first few words of any book are significant in their very primacy.


Cito di Pense wrote:So you fucking say. This is starting to be a habit with you.
Well, don't you agree? You read a book from the start. The words themselves talk about beginnings (as do those of John, another meaningful link). If it was Feigenbaum's constant in there, I wouldn't be so impressed. And if you were going to place a watermark within scripture, authenticating it, wouldn't you place it there right at the start? I would.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#52  Postby chairman bill » Mar 30, 2016 6:10 pm

Actually, I think blue triangle might be on to something. Here's why; the Holy Trinity in Christianity is well known, but that sacred number three is repeated in fairy stories too. We have the three little pigs and the three bears. In addition, if we convert the words 'three little pigs' into numbers, we get 28955 (resolves to 2) 392235 (resolves to 6) 7979 (resolves to 5), and 265 resolves to 13 (the number of the disciples plus Christ), and then to 4, being the four gospels. Converting the words 'three bears', we get 28955 (resolves to 2) 25191 (resolves to 9), giving us 11, which in turn resolves to 1, because there is one true God.

Now, if we take the unresolved numbers for 'little', we find a square root of 170.161687815. Taking the unresolved numbers for pigs, added to the same for bears, we get 797925191, the square root of which is 28247.5696477. Add together & we get an amazing 28417.731335515, which in turns resolves as 1, again because there is just one true God, and He's the Lord of both pigs & bears too.

Frankly, I find the symbolic meaning astounding, but there is more. Some simple but significantly symbolic mathematical operations changes 282475 and 696477 into the precise latitude & longitude for Jerusalem.

And if that doesn't convince you all, you can just fuck off.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#53  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 6:15 pm

This is just so great. Blue triangle couldn't be doing a better job of discrediting theism if a Militant Atheist was writing his script.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#54  Postby Scar » Mar 30, 2016 6:15 pm

blue triangle wrote:
I'm going to refrain from making any smart-arsed comments here (but you know I could :evilgrin: ).

Sure you could. But that would look rather silly coming from you.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#55  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 6:16 pm

TopCat wrote:The approximations aren't even very good - pi isn't right to even 5 decimals, and e isn't right even to 4. Not to mention the arbitrary factors 10^17 and 10^40 in the results.

Don't you think that if God was going to demean himself with this sort of buggering about, he'd go to a little trouble and get the numbers bang on? To at least a number of decimals well beyond the computing ability of the people that wrote down his word?

There are lots of rational approximations to pi that are a damn sight better than this one -

3126535 / 995207 for instance.

Find a woo-woo numerological way of getting those numbers, and Bob's your uncle.

But this is just pathetic. Quite apart from the fuckwittery of numerology, this is a simple case of people's tendency to spot patterns, and not even very good ones.


BT has nothing to say about this. One wonders why. I guess there's only one of him, and insulting Cito is a much higher priority.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#56  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 6:32 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
blue triangle wrote:It's the standard version of the Hebrew Bible, the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.


So you fucking say. Who made it the 'standard version'? You did! You don't fucking know who made it the standard version.


I'm going to refrain from making any smart-arsed comments here (but you know I could :evilgrin: ). Here's the wikipedia article on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

Note the second sentence:
However, contemporary scholars seeking to understand the history of the Hebrew Bible’s text use a range of other sources

Also, as explained before, the Tanakh is not the only Jewish central text. There's also the Talmud.


blue triangle wrote:
blue triangle wrote:And those old Hebrew scribes maintained strict procedures to ensure perfect copying. Very few errors got through.


Cito di Pense wrote:So you fucking say, with the hollow voice of assumed authority.
Its well known, even by laypersons like me. :mrgreen:

Appeal to (blindly asserted) common sense fallacy.

blue triangle wrote:
blue triangle wrote:The first few words of any book are significant in their very primacy.


Cito di Pense wrote:So you fucking say. This is starting to be a habit with you.
Well, don't you agree?

Stop trying to shift the burden of proof blue triangle.

blue triangle wrote:You read a book from the start.

And usually the centre and end of a book are just as important, if not more so.

blue triangle wrote: The words themselves talk about beginnings (as do those of John, another meaningful link). If it was Feigenbaum's constant in there, I wouldn't be so impressed. And if you were going to place a watermark within scripture, authenticating it, wouldn't you place it there right at the start? I would.

:picard:
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Mar 30, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#57  Postby Sendraks » Mar 30, 2016 6:38 pm

Quotes are slightly messed up towards the end there Thomas, you've got Cito in the quotes when it should BT.

Obviously you'll have to edit the post to correct this, which is clearly only being done because you're trying to hide your attempts to insinuate something about BT. ;)
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#58  Postby blue triangle » Mar 30, 2016 6:39 pm

TopCat wrote:The approximations aren't even very good - pi isn't right to even 5 decimals, and e isn't right even to 4. Not to mention the arbitrary factors 10^17 and 10^40 in the results.


Yes, I agree about the digits, but the errors are the same, 1 in 90000, and because one is an overestimate and the other an underestimate, they cancel out almost entirely. The zeros, well, it would be better if you didn't need to divide by those huge factors, I'll grant you, but there is much more there.

TopCat wrote:Don't you think that if God was going to demean himself with this sort of buggering about, he'd go to a little trouble and get the numbers bang on?


You can't get transcendental numbers bang on. They can only ever be approximations.


To at least a number of decimals well beyond the computing ability of the people that wrote down his word?
The alpha estimate? Let me show you again.

Genesis 1.1 (cv) = 2701 = 37 x 73
John 1.1 (cv) = 3627 = 39 x 93

27013627 x 27013627 = alpha x 10E17. Ignoring the 10E17, this is accurate to 1 in a million. The issue here isn;t that they couldn't have been computed, but in the case of e and alpha, they weren't even known.

The exponential number, e, was only discovered in the late 17th Century by Jacob Bernoulli, although it was implied by the work of John Napier in the early 17th Century.

Alpha was introduced exactly 100 years ago by Arnold Sommerfeld. I find it interesting that it describes the strength of the interaction between light (photons) and matter (electrons), because of course Genesis tells us that God said "Let the be light."

There are lots of rational approximations to pi that are a damn sight better than this one -
too true, but there's lots more in there, and IMO it would be wasteful and maybe even a violation of our free will to reject God if we wish, to put undeniable evidence before us, say pi to 40 decimal places. It should make you think though, at the very least.

3126535 / 995207 for instance.

Find a woo-woo numerological way of getting those numbers, and Bob's your uncle.

But this is just pathetic. Quite apart from the fuckwittery of numerology, this is a simple case of people's tendency to spot patterns, and not even very good ones.


But pi and e are both found using exactly the same calculation! And how simple and elegant is it? The simplicity, the economy, the integration, the elegance and the meaningfulness of this phenomenon are exactly what we would expect if God were involved.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#59  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 6:40 pm

blue triangle wrote:
TopCat wrote:The approximations aren't even very good - pi isn't right to even 5 decimals, and e isn't right even to 4. Not to mention the arbitrary factors 10^17 and 10^40 in the results.


Yes, I agree about the digits, but the errors are the same, 1 in 90000, and because one is an overestimate and the other an underestimate, they cancel out almost entirely.


:rofl:

:drunk:

:crazy:

I've added this thread to the "battiest thing you've ever heard a believer say" thread. It's eminently qualified.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#60  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 30, 2016 6:41 pm

blue triangle wrote:
I'm going to refrain from making any smart-arsed comments here (but you know I could


No, you can't. You're a 'layperson'. What you can do is pester a rationalist website with stuff you pull out of your backside, and say, "It's well known." You pulled that out of your backside, as well.

blue triangle wrote:You read a book from the start. The words themselves talk about beginnings (as do those of John, another meaningful link). If it was Feigenbaum's constant in there, I wouldn't be so impressed. And if you were going to place a watermark within scripture, authenticating it, wouldn't you place it there right at the start? I would.


You forgot to include how the encoding gives you the numbers you're after. What you do, especially if you're a layperson, is develop an encoding that gives you the number you're after. Theologians aren't interested in this woo-crap. Laypersons only. It's just the sort of crank theory that we'd expect from somebody who's finding the secrets of Atlantis in the history of the Kennedy assasination.
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