Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

Pi, e and alpha found in the Masoretic/Textus Receptus

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Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#1  Postby blue triangle » Mar 30, 2016 3:13 pm

I was asked by AlanB if I could provide evidence for the interaction of a non-physical mind with physical matter. This is how it was framed.

Reply to a theist who asserts that a god exists or gods exist:
What you must do now is to prove (or show evidence of) the existence of an interface between a non-physical God (or gods) and a physical universe (or even a physical human being will do). You must then describe the precise nature of the interface: how it is implemented, what 'connections' are used and the translation 'mechanism' across the interface. Bearing in mind, of course, that one side of the interface must be entirely non-physical such that no physical measuring device can detect its presence and that the other side must exist solely in the physical universe.



Here is my answer.

In a scientific age religious believers find themselves under fire for their outdated mythologies and unscientific beliefs, flying in the face of evidence that God is nowhere to be found in nature. Personal experience of the divine is regarded as comforting belief at best and dogmatic refusal to listen to the evidence of science at worst. And yet evidence has been provided for those with faith, strongly indicating that a non-physical being or mind or power has been interacting with physical matter in the form of human beings for a very long time. What I am about to present is not evidence for the God of the Bible as such, simply for a non-physical mind guiding the authorship of those scriptures, which is what I was asked to show.

The Bible is claimed by Christians to be the work of God, yet the historicity of many passages is open to question at best and almost undeniably absent at worst. Textual analysis by theologians has also shown that many passages have been edited over and again and therefore the real authorship of many parts of scripture is often unknown. However, no matter who its human authors were, there is evidence that an unseen hand (that non-physical mind) was guiding them. This hand has to have been guiding the evolution of the Bible over long periods of time, with many scribes and editors and in at least three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

The evidence is contained within the text itself, as letters which when converted into numbers via historically attested systems of alphabetic numeration, and subjected to the simplest of manipulations, hide good approximations of the transcendental numbers pi and e. The approximations are in error of the true values by 1 part in 90000 and largely cancel out to give a combined error of about 1 part in a million. These are the two most important transcendentals, well known to mathematicians, scientists and engineers. A third number, the physical constant alpha (electromagnetic fine structure constant), is also found in the same locations. When this is added to the other two numbers, the error of the combined three numbers reduces to about 1 part in 18 million.

What are those biblical locations? They are the Bible's first verse, Genesis 1.1, and a verse with very similar meaning, John 1.1. The first is the Masoretic text, written in biblical Hebrew, the second is the Textus receptus, written in Koine Greek. The precise structure of Genesis 1.1 has been fixed for at least 1000 years, probably longer, and pi was known to about that level of accuracy when Genesis was written. However, the encoding within John 1.1 is even more mysterious, since e was unknown even as a concept when it was written and the structure 'fixed'. The constant alpha was unknown until the early 20th Century. The author, Vernon Jenkins, was a mathematics lecturer in Wales.

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/First_Princs.htm

The evidence, then, is three of the most important numbers in mathematics and physics, found within two of the most important locations in scripture. There is much more to be said, and much more evidence, but this will get the conversation started.
Last edited by blue triangle on Mar 30, 2016 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#2  Postby campermon » Mar 30, 2016 3:16 pm

:popcorn:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#3  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 3:26 pm

FFS. :rofl:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#4  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 3:32 pm

.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#5  Postby GrahamH » Mar 30, 2016 3:34 pm

Why do you think that?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#6  Postby Thommo » Mar 30, 2016 3:34 pm

So, performing one of dozens of similar arbitrary operations to bible verses gives something that should only happen about 1 in 90,000 times.

Generously assuming there are only 10 such similar methods, that means that this is an amazing feat if there are substantially less than 9,000 verses in the bible. Say, for instance if there were 900 verse in the bible*, then it would be as remarkable as a 1 in 10 chance, say picking a card at random from a deck and it being a 7 or something equally unbelievable.

Hmmm.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_ ... _the_Bible
There are 23,145 verses in the Old Testament and 7,957 verses in the New Testament. This gives a total of 31,102 verses
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#7  Postby blue triangle » Mar 30, 2016 3:36 pm

Some interesting features of those verses are that the 'characteristic value' of Genesis 1.1 (the sum of all the letter values) is 2701, which is 37 x 73. 2701 is a triangular number and 37/73 are centred hexagram numbers, giving the Star of David. John 1.1 is 3627, which is 39 x 93 and forms a trapezium on which triangle 2701 can sit to form a larger triangle with 6328 counters. This is the 112th triangle in the sequence, and 112 is the characterustic value of YHVH Elohim, the Lord God.

Bu concatenating the two verse values we get 27013627. If this is squared we have 7.2973604 x 10E14, which, again ignoring the zeros, is alpha, the current estimate for which is 7.2973525 . . . x 10E-3
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#8  Postby chairman bill » Mar 30, 2016 3:37 pm

No doubt I could come up with some numerological system that would find mathematical truths in Beatrix Potter books. FFS, this shit is evidence of a supernatural entity? It is nothing more than a numerical form of pareidolia.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#9  Postby Scar » Mar 30, 2016 3:39 pm

Are you this eager to discredit yourself blue triangle?
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#10  Postby Thommo » Mar 30, 2016 3:41 pm

You know, I heard that Moby Dick predicted the assassination of Martin Luther King jr.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#11  Postby blue triangle » Mar 30, 2016 3:42 pm

Thommo wrote:So, performing one of dozens of similar arbitrary operations to bible verses gives something that should only happen about 1 in 90,000 times.

Generously assuming there are only 10 such similar methods, that means that this is an amazing feat if there are substantially less than 9,000 verses in the bible. Say, for instance if there were 900 verse in the bible*, then it would be as remarkable as a 1 in 10 chance, say picking a card at random from a deck and it being a 7 or something equally unbelievable.

Hmmm.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_ ... _the_Bible
There are 23,145 verses in the Old Testament and 7,957 verses in the New Testament. This gives a total of 31,102 verses


One of the significant features here is that it is the Bible's first verse and John's first verse, not one from the middle of the Bible. There are about 31000 verses in the Bible and so finding something this close to pi once is not that amazing. Finding it in the very first verse is amazing. Finding e in another, meaningfully-related first verse, encoded the same way and to the same degree of accuracy, the equal and opposite errors cancelling out almost exactly, is astounding!
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#12  Postby laklak » Mar 30, 2016 3:44 pm

I have 10 toes. We use base 10. Therefore God.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#13  Postby Thommo » Mar 30, 2016 3:50 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Thommo wrote:So, performing one of dozens of similar arbitrary operations to bible verses gives something that should only happen about 1 in 90,000 times.

Generously assuming there are only 10 such similar methods, that means that this is an amazing feat if there are substantially less than 9,000 verses in the bible. Say, for instance if there were 900 verse in the bible*, then it would be as remarkable as a 1 in 10 chance, say picking a card at random from a deck and it being a 7 or something equally unbelievable.

Hmmm.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_ ... _the_Bible
There are 23,145 verses in the Old Testament and 7,957 verses in the New Testament. This gives a total of 31,102 verses


One of the significant features here is that it is the Bible's first verse and John's first verse, not one from the middle of the Bible. There are about 31000 verses in the Bible and so finding something this close to pi once is not that amazing. Finding it in the very first verse is amazing. Finding e in another, meaningfully-related first verse, encoded the same way and to the same degree of accuracy, the equal and opposite errors cancelling out almost exactly, is astounding!


Do you actually believe this rubbish? There's nothing astounding about it at all.

There are (literally) infinitely many different ways you can assign combinations of symbols to numbers. Allowing yourself the freedom to make up the rules governing the assignment retroactively is the same as shooting at the side of the barn and then drawing the target circles around the holes.

You could do this with any old text you like, it's a complete waste of everyone's time and it's been done in a million ways by a million people. Check out someone's thread about "amazing" mathematics, for just one example of how deep people troubled by mental health issues can go.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#14  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 3:54 pm

blue triangle wrote: One of the significant features here is that it is the Bible's first verse and John's first verse, not one from the middle of the Bible. There are about 31000 verses in the Bible and so finding something this close to pi once is not that amazing. Finding it in the very first verse is amazing. Finding e in another, meaningfully-related first verse, encoded the same way and to the same degree of accuracy, the equal and opposite errors cancelling out almost exactly, is astounding!


Maybe if you added a few more exclamation points. :dunno:

Whatever credibility you may have had left is now gone.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#15  Postby campermon » Mar 30, 2016 3:58 pm

Shrunk wrote:FFS. :rofl:


I turned the message 'FFS' into a number (a=1,b=2 etc..) and followed the method given by the mad bloke in the link given in the OP, and got the number:

2052


Then, googled it to get this: http://www.numbergossip.com/2052

"Common Properties of 2052
Abundant
Apocalyptic power
Composite
Even
Evil
Practical
Untouchable"

:shock:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 3:59 pm

blue triangle wrote:I was asked by AlanB if I could provide evidence for the interaction of a non-physical mind with physical matter. This is how it was framed.

Reply to a theist who asserts that a god exists or gods exist:
What you must do now is to prove (or show evidence of) the existence of an interface between a non-physical God (or gods) and a physical universe (or even a physical human being will do). You must then describe the precise nature of the interface: how it is implemented, what 'connections' are used and the translation 'mechanism' across the interface. Bearing in mind, of course, that one side of the interface must be entirely non-physical such that no physical measuring device can detect its presence and that the other side must exist solely in the physical universe.



Here is my answer.

In a scientific age religious believers find themselves under fire for their outdated mythologies and unscientific beliefs, flying in the face of evidence that God is nowhere to be found in nature.

If you want your readers to be interested, starting with a whinge about how poor and perscuted theists are, you're not going to get far.
Keep away the appeals to emotion and persecution complex.

blue triangle wrote: Personal experience of the divine is regarded as comforting belief at best and dogmatic refusal to listen to the evidence of science at worst.

Not to mention indistinguishable from people on drugs, or who have hallucinations through some other method or deficiency.

blue triangle wrote: And yet evidence has been provided for those with faith, strongly indicating that a non-physical being or mind or power has been interacting with physical matter in the form of human beings for a very long time.

As I explained in the other thread, evidence is evidence.
Regardless of whether someone has faith or not.
This is your first post answering the question and you're already trying to sneak in an Emperor's New Clothes fallacy.

blue triangle wrote: What I am about to present is not evidence for the God of the Bible as such, simply for a non-physical mind guiding the authorship of those scriptures, which is what I was asked to show.

Then I'll ask a two folluw up questions in advance:
How do you this mind thing is the god of the bible?
Did the god of the bible not, supposedly, create us in his own image? How can that be when he has no image?


blue triangle wrote: The Bible is claimed by Christians to be the work of God, yet the historicity of many passages is open to question at best and almost undeniably absent at worst.

You just said you weren't going to bother with the god of the bible. Why are you waffling about the bible then?

blue triangle wrote: Textual analysis by theologians historians and linguists has also shown that many passages have been edited over and again and therefore the real authorship of many parts of scripture is often unknown.

FIFY. And just as a by the by, this includes the authorship of the gospels.

blue triangle wrote: However, no matter who its human authors were, there is evidence that an unseen hand (that non-physical mind) was guiding them.

Not really. But do present this 'evidence'.

blue triangle wrote: This hand has to have been guiding the evolution of the Bible over long periods of time, with many scribes and editors and in at least three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

How is the number of translations or the specific languages relevant?
More importantly how is the bible at all relevant if your goal isn't to prove the existence of the Christian god but a vaguely defined mind?

blue triangle wrote:The evidence is contained within the text itself, as letters which when converted into numbers via historically attested systems of alphabetic numeration, and subjected to the simplest of manipulations, hide good approximations of the transcendental numbers pi and e. The approximations are in error of the true values by 1 part in 90000 and largely cancel out to give a combined error of about 1 part in a million. These are the two most important transcendentals, well known to mathematicians, scientists and engineers. A third number, the physical constant alpha (electromagnetic fine structure constant), is also found in the same locations. When this is added to the other two numbers, the error of the combined three numbers reduces to about 1 part in 18 million.

What are those biblical locations? They are the Bible's first verse, Genesis 1.1, and a verse with very similar meaning, John 1.1. The first is the Masoretic text, written in biblical Hebrew, the second is the Textus receptus, written in Koine Greek. The precise structure of Genesis 1.1 has been fixed for at least 1000 years, probably longer, and pi was known to about that level of accuracy when Genesis was written. However, the encoding within John 1.1 is even more mysterious, since e was unknown even as a concept when it was written and the structure 'fixed'. The constant alpha was unknown until the early 20th Century. The author, Vernon Jenkins, was a mathematics lecturer in Wales.

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/First_Princs.htm

The evidence, then, is three of the most important numbers in mathematics and physics, found within two of the most important locations in scripture. There is much more to be said, and much more evidence, but this will get the conversation started.

You do realise that numeroly is a debunked and ludicrous 'theory' right?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#17  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 4:01 pm

I can't find the video anymore, but there it was demonstrated that, thru numerology, the 9/11 attacks were predicted in Vanilla Ice's 1989 hit "Ice Ice Baby". Even more astounding! was that the government's subsequent report on 9/11 contained eerily accurate predictions of the demise of Vanilla Ice's musical career. :shock:
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#18  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 30, 2016 4:03 pm

blue triangle wrote:
Thommo wrote:So, performing one of dozens of similar arbitrary operations to bible verses gives something that should only happen about 1 in 90,000 times.

Generously assuming there are only 10 such similar methods, that means that this is an amazing feat if there are substantially less than 9,000 verses in the bible. Say, for instance if there were 900 verse in the bible*, then it would be as remarkable as a 1 in 10 chance, say picking a card at random from a deck and it being a 7 or something equally unbelievable.

Hmmm.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_ ... _the_Bible
There are 23,145 verses in the Old Testament and 7,957 verses in the New Testament. This gives a total of 31,102 verses


One of the significant features here is that it is the Bible's first verse and John's first verse, not one from the middle of the Bible.

How do you know this?

There are about 31000 verses in the Bible and so finding something this close to pi once is not that amazing. Finding it in the very first verse is amazing.

Why?
As you yourself admit, pi was already discovered at the time.


Finding e in another, meaningfully-related first verse, encoded the same way and to the same degree of accuracy, the equal and opposite errors cancelling out almost exactly, is astounding!

Do we need to explain again, the difference between a blind assertion and an argument?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#19  Postby Shrunk » Mar 30, 2016 4:03 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote: You do realise that numeroly is a debunked and ludicrous 'theory' right?


It's just like how in the other thread blue triangle, when asked to produce the best scientific evidence for psychic phenomena, cited a website which used "remote viewing" techniques to locate the Lost Kingdom of Atlantis. Good times.
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Re: Mathematical Absolutes in Scripture

#20  Postby laklak » Mar 30, 2016 4:06 pm

Shrunk wrote:I can't find the video anymore, but there it was demonstrated that, thru numerology, the 9/11 attacks were predicted in Vanilla Ice's 1989 hit "Ice Ice Baby". Even more astounding! was that the government's subsequent report on 9/11 contained eerily accurate predictions of the demise of Vanilla Ice's musical career. :shock:


Damn! So it worked both ways? That cannot be, simply CAN'T be mere coincidence.

English probably has a tense that covers this situation. The past prescient pluperfect, or something.
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