Near death/out of body experience vid

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Near death/out of body experience vid

#1  Postby inkaStepa » Jan 29, 2011 11:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SBscOE2 ... re=related

This woman talks about being under anesthesia and remembering/witnessing things that happened during her surgery...how could she have known what was said about her veins being too small? Could they all be lying?
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#2  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 30, 2011 11:59 pm

'Under anaesthesia' doesn't necessarily mean you are unaware of your surroundings. She heard them speaking and remembered. Why look for a woo-based reason?
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#3  Postby science_is_god » Jan 31, 2011 1:04 pm

Spearthrower wrote:'Under anaesthesia' doesn't necessarily mean you are unaware of your surroundings. She heard them speaking and remembered. Why look for a woo-based reason?


What was the name of that bloody book?
Think it's a Colin Wilson book but think I've possibly got Colin and Robert Anton Wilson mixed up?
Either way there's a book I've got at home with a number of "case studies" one of which was a patient in a coma who was clinically braindead, same thing as the above, could recount conversations that were had in the room whilst he was braindead.
Will have a look for it tonight.

Cheers
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#4  Postby chairman bill » Jan 31, 2011 1:10 pm

'Tis Colin Wilson - I think it's in The Unexplained
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#5  Postby science_is_god » Jan 31, 2011 1:30 pm

chairman bill wrote:'Tis Colin Wilson - I think it's in The Unexplained


Thought I was going mental there for a mo.
Not the Unexplained - definitely haven't read that one. Think it's got "reason" in the title but all I can think of is "The age of reason" and that's definitely Mr Paine!

Cheers though!
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 31, 2011 1:31 pm

I am not sure how someone can be 'clinically brain dead' then be alive.

'Clinical brain death' is a non-arbitrary assessment of the irreversible end of all brain activity due to the necrosis of cerebral neurons. If the patient truly were 'clinically brain dead' and then came back to speak about their experience, it's not NDE's we need to be worried about, but flat-out resurrection!

There's quite a substantial period of time after the body dies where the brain retains enough oxygen to not be damaged if the heart starts pumping again - generally around 4 - 6 minutes iirc. This period of time is increased if the body is kept cold, 20 minutes or longer in some cases. During this time, there need be no respiration or heart-beat, but the brain itself is not yet dead. Even after this time, it is possible to restart the body and the brain can continue functioning, but often with damage, like memory loss, speech and motor impediments etc.

If the person in that story had truly had experienced clinical brain death, then been brought back to life, it would quite literally be a miracle.

Instead, I would guess (admittedly without reading the book) that the person's brain hadn't actually been deprived from oxygen long enough for necrosis of cerebral neurons to occur, and thus they were never 'clinically brain dead'. This means that, for all intents and purposes, his/her brain was actually functioning. It may sound strange, but if you imagine a person having a heart attack where the heart stops beating, it doesn't mean their brain literally turns off instantly, and no one would be surprised if they could 'recount conversations that were had in the room'.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 31, 2011 1:37 pm

science_is_god wrote:
chairman bill wrote:'Tis Colin Wilson - I think it's in The Unexplained


Thought I was going mental there for a mo.
Not the Unexplained - definitely haven't read that one. Think it's got "reason" in the title but all I can think of is "The age of reason" and that's definitely Mr Paine!

Cheers though!


Here's his Bibliography...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wilson#Bibliography

I have to say that it doesn't inspire me with confidence in believing what he claims to be scientifically based - telepathy, energy, Atlantis, life after death, ghosts, UFO's... his Woo Resume is loaded!
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#8  Postby tnjrp » Jan 31, 2011 1:43 pm

Spearthrower wrote:I am not sure how someone can be 'clinically brain dead' then be alive
I've noticed the NDE proponents like to use the term "clinically brain dead" for a condition where no brain activity was detected by available methods. Obviously as you pointed out, medical science has a different definition.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#9  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 31, 2011 1:48 pm

Probably best to put up some information to help out on this one then -

Positive Examination for Brain Death

http://health.howstuffworks.com/disease ... death4.htm

1. The patient has no response to command, verbal, visual or otherwise.

2. The patient is flaccid, with areflexic extremities. The patient has no movements -- the arms and legs are raised and allowed to fall to see if there are adjacent movements, restraint or hesitation in the fall.

3. The pupils are unreactive (fixed). The patient's eyes are opened and a very bright light is shined into the pupil. The light will activate the optic nerve and send a message to the brain. In the normal brain, the brain will send an impulse back to the eye to constrict the pupil. In the non-viable brain, no impulse will be generated. This is performed in both eyes.

4. The patient has no oculocephalic reflex. The patient's eyes are opened and the head turned from side to side. The active brain will allow a roving motion of the eyes; the non-functional brain will not. The eyes remain fixed.

5. The patient has no corneal reflexes. A cotton swab is dragged across the cornea while the eye is held open. The intact brain will want the eye to blink. The dead brain will not. This is performed in both eyes.

6. The patient has no response -- either purposeful or posturing -- to supra-orbital stimulation. The patient's eyebrow ridge is compressed with the thumb. The resulting stimulation pressure will cause motion of the extremities, either purposeful or primitive posturing, in the living-brain patient, but none in the brain-dead patient.

7. The patient has no oculovestibular reflex. The patient's ear canal is inspected to ensure an intact tympanic membrane and that the ear is free of wax. While holding the eyes open, ice water is injected into the ear canal. The drastic change in ear temperature will cause a violent eye twitching by the intact brain but no reaction in the brain-dead patient. This is performed in both ears.

8. The patient has no gag reflex. The movement of the breathing tube (in and out) or the insertion of a smaller tube down the breathing tube will cause a gag reflex in a comatose patient, but will not elicit a reflex in the brain-dead patient.

9. The patient has no spontaneous respiration. The patient is temporarily removed from life support (the ventilator). With the cessation of breathing by the machine, the body will immediately start to build up metabolic waste of carton dioxide (CO2) in the blood. When the CO2 level reaches a level of 55 mm Hg, the active brain will cause the patient to breathe spontaneously. The dead brain gives no response.


This is followed up by several confirming diagnoses depending on the laws of the country. Some require secondary confirmation some hours after initial diagnosis! Rest assured you'll probably never be buried alive due to coroner's error in the modern world!
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#10  Postby tnjrp » Jan 31, 2011 2:00 pm

As for this rather chewed-up bone of contention (sorry, I just enjoy using canine-related phrases :mrgreen:)...
inkaStepa wrote:This woman talks about being under anesthesia and remembering/witnessing things that happened during her surgery... how could she have known what was said about her veins being too small?
...it is in some cases somewhat unclear if the patient has been truly completely unconscious and/or sans the aforementioned brain activity at an observable level. It is also often unclear when the memories of the events they claim to recall might have formed. It is known that sedation and anaesthetics don't always work in the way they are expected to and also that when a person is borderline conscious (normally this state is experienced when sleeping) the subjective experience of time passing becomes fuzzy (so that you may for example recall a very long dream from a period of only few minutes, perhaps only seconds of REM sleep).

Could they all be lying?
Lying doesn't have to enter into it, tho parts of the experience are probably constructed post hoc just like most memories are.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#11  Postby inkaStepa » Jan 31, 2011 7:15 pm

Ah ok, so it could have simply been the anesthethic wearing off?
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#12  Postby paceetrate » Jan 31, 2011 10:08 pm

inkaStepa wrote:Ah ok, so it could have simply been the anesthethic wearing off?


Or they convinced themselves that they actually experienced the conversations as they happened, when in reality, someone just told them what was said -after- the surgery. That's what tnjrp meant by "post hoc". It's the same way most false memories are formed. Someone tells you that something happened, and your brain constructs a memory around that, and it will seem to you as if you actually remembered the event.

It's interesting to note that there have been cases where people have hid items and whatnot on top of shelves and such in ORs, and when a person claims to have "watched the surgery from above", they NEVER recall seeing the strange object on the shelf. :coffee:

Completely off-topic, but Inka, you never told us what happened with your trip to the graveyard back in Oct. Why don't you go revive that thread and tell us what happened? I, for one, am curious. :)
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 01, 2011 12:24 am

inkaStepa wrote:Ah ok, so it could have simply been the anesthethic wearing off?


The anaesthetic could have been working as well as it was ever going to work... if the patient didnt feel pain and couldn't move around, that's the 'aim' of anaesthetising, unconsciousness is just a useful side-effect.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#14  Postby tnjrp » Feb 01, 2011 7:51 am

paceetrate wrote:Or they convinced themselves that they actually experienced the conversations as they happened, when in reality, someone just told them what was said -after- the surgery. That's what tnjrp meant by "post hoc". It's the same way most false memories are formed. Someone tells you that something happened, and your brain constructs a memory around that, and it will seem to you as if you actually remembered the event
Indeed, tho even somebody telling them something doesn't necessarily have to enter into it: all our memories tend to get edited over time in our own heads without outside help, and thus are most often partial fabrications.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#15  Postby inkaStepa » Feb 01, 2011 8:24 pm

Thanks you guys. I get stuck on things like this that really have a reason, yet people just say "it's unexplainable." I must read more I guess.

And about the graveyard- it was fun but we didn't find any ghosts. We're planning a bigger one in the summer- everyone is responsible for a certain diety invocation...just no animal sacrifice (at least I hope not...some people here are crazy.)
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#16  Postby Teria » Feb 01, 2011 8:54 pm

I had surgery when I was about 18. I was properly anaesthizised (or whatever it's called) and blacked out. As in, everything went black and I was gone. When I began to wake up after the surgery, I noticed that someone was doing something with my body, so I said "please don't cut anymore". I don't remember being cut but my body did. Nothing "near-deathy" there.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#17  Postby Darkchilde » Feb 02, 2011 7:11 am

inkaStepa wrote:Thanks you guys. I get stuck on things like this that really have a reason, yet people just say "it's unexplainable." I must read more I guess.

And about the graveyard- it was fun but we didn't find any ghosts. We're planning a bigger one in the summer- everyone is responsible for a certain diety invocation...just no animal sacrifice (at least I hope not...some people here are crazy.)


Make sure that there is an invocation to Great Cthulhu. :P
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#18  Postby Mike_L » Feb 02, 2011 8:04 am

I don't think it's particularly remarkable for a person under general anaesthetic to experience an out-of-body hallucination. General anaesthesia usually employs two drugs, one a sedative (e.g. a barbiturate or a benzodiazepine) and the other a dissociative (e.g. ketamine). Dissociatives are known to elicit "out-of-body" experiences. This Wikipedia description of ketamine's effects says it all....
Ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization. At sufficiently high doses (e.g. 150 mg intramuscular), users may experience what is coined the "K-hole", a state of dissociation whose effects are thought to mimic the phenomenology of schizophrenia. Users may experience worlds or dimensions that are ineffable, all the while being completely unaware of their individual identities or the external world. Users have reported intense hallucinations including visual hallucinations, perceptions of falling, fast and gradual movement and flying, "seeing God", feeling connected to other users, objects and the cosmos, experiencing psychotic reactions, and shared hallucinations, and thoughts with adjacent users.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Psychological_effects
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Re: Near death/out of body experience vid

#19  Postby tnjrp » Feb 02, 2011 8:39 am

inkaStepa wrote:I get stuck on things like this that really have a reason, yet people just say "it's unexplainable."
A fairly good rule of the thumb is that if somebody claims something is "unexplainable" or offers up a single extraordinary explanation as the sole one for something, they are often overlooking several less extraordinary effects the interplay of which may in fact explain the something. Sorta like A expains 1/3, B explains 1/3 and C explains 1/3. This may be hard to ascertain however precisely because there is no single explanation covering all the bases.
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