Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#101  Postby campermon » May 25, 2010 4:46 pm

jerome wrote:Oh I have posted by the way - just waiting for approval. CAmpermom has a week to laugh at my silly stuff and make a reply (or longer if need be, as I really don't mind, and a 5000 word limit nearly killed me on this post -- too big!) OK ythanks to Mr.Samsa, up now -- formal-debates/formal-debate-existence-of-ghosts-apparitions-t6927.html

Oh and thank you to Campermom for being so understanding about the deadline!

j x


No problem with the deadline Jerome!

No need to worry about me laughing at your 'silly stuff', it all sounds rather interesting! I'm a bit like 'Wurzel Gummidge' (you're old enough to remember him ;) ) and I've put on my 'scientific' head! :sherlock:

I hope to post by the weekend.

:cheers:

ps - will PM you my email address for the papers..
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#102  Postby Lion IRC » May 26, 2010 12:28 am

jerome wrote:...Oh and thank you to Campermom for being so understanding about the deadline!
j x


I agree about Campermon. :clap:
A very "reasonable" and honorable debating opponent you have there Jerome.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#103  Postby twistor59 » May 26, 2010 6:54 am

Some good ghost stories from Jerome there.

Also of interest was Campermon's sex change. I didn't know about that, but now that it's in the open - welcome Campermom - just make sure you use the right toilets !
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#104  Postby jerome » May 26, 2010 10:04 am

I ave called him that for 5 years, have you never noticed! ;)
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#105  Postby jerome » May 26, 2010 10:05 am

twistor59 wrote:Some good ghost stories from Jerome there.

Also of interest was Campermon's sex change. I didn't know about that, but now that it's in the open - welcome Campermom - just make sure you use the right toilets !



Ah that reminds me - will two crates of champagne suffice?

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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#106  Postby twistor59 » May 26, 2010 11:59 am

jerome wrote:I ave called him that for 5 years, have you never noticed! ;)


No, but then last week I just got my first pair of reading glasses, so I'm now seeing stuff on the screen that was previously invisible to me ! I'm really really not enjoying the growing old thing...
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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#107  Postby The_Metatron » May 26, 2010 2:19 pm

Nearly 5000 words of nothing but ghost stories? That's the opening shot?

I would address a couple points from these ghost stories that catch my attention:

You recounted a wiki article on an event in Rosenheim, which I snipped this from:

The Deutsche Post installed instruments that recorded numerous phone calls which were never made.

Oooh, the Duetsche Post, no less! A newspaper.
Within five weeks the instruments recorded roughly 600 calls to the speaking clock (number 0119 in Germany) even though all the phones in the office were disabled and only Adam himself had the key required to enable them. In one 15-minute period the speaking clock had been called 46 times, sometimes at a rate that appeared impossible with the mechanical dialling system of 1967. In October 1967 all light bulbs went out with a huge bang.


So, what can we conclude? That the telephone switching equipment in the local dial central office of Rosenheim is failing selectively, only when the poltergeist decides to place a call to find our what time it is? Or, that someone on that dial loop did place those calls. If this Adam had the only key to enable the phones in the office, who is now the prime suspect? Here are the possibilities: Either Adam made these calls, or someone else on that dial loop did. That someone else doesn't have to be in that office, you know.

Pulse dialing the numbers 0119 takes 3.9 seconds. Each pulse is a tenth of a second, with 600 milliseconds between digits. So even if we get generous and allow five seconds to dial and build each local call, in any fifteen minute period, 180 calls to 0119 can be placed. 46 is not a fantastic number.

Again, unless we suspect a selective failure that is reliably repeatable, that telephone system is doing exactly what it is engineered to do.

Some asshole is calling the time recording. A lot.

Later on:
...ringing of all four telephones simultaneously, calls never made being registered, light bulbs exploding, pictures moving, and drawers opening. Through special recording devices, two physicists determined that the oscillographic measurements were not related to defects in the electrical system and could be due only to some unknown energy depending on the presence of a 19-year-old girl who worked in the office as an apprentice.

Ringing all four telephones simultaneously, huh? Does the haunted office have it's own key system? I doubt it, for only four extensions. A key system is installed when there are dozens or hundreds of local extensions in a building. So, we almost certainly have four separate dial loops from the customer premises to the dial central office. What's the most likely cause of all four phones ringing? Anyone? How about them all being called at the same time from oh, say, any fucking place in the world? Or, how about someone at the local telephone switch listening to the news and adding to the fun?
An analysis of the distribution of incidents in time and space showed that they decreased with the distance from the agent and seemed dependent on the intensity of the "affective field" existing in the office situation. When the girl left for a vacation, the phenomena ceased.

So waddya think? Either the girl is in on it, or is being observed by the person who is doing the phreaking.

Them some more:

... a Tektronix plug-in unit in a storage oscilloscope were used to record the voltage, electrical deflections, electrical potential, magnetic field near the recorder, and sound amplitude in the office.

There is so much wrong with this it's amazing. Here are some questions about their "tests":
How many channels of information is this one storage scope recording? What the fuck is this scope actually connected to? You can't just stick an o'scope in a room and expect it to be measuring anything, you have to connect it to whatever you wish to test.

The terms "voltage" and "electrical potential" are interchangeable. But voltage doesn't simply exist on it's own. It's measured between two different points. When there are more electrons on one pole than the other, an electrical potential, or voltage, exists between those two points. Complete the path, and current with then flow.

Whatever they mean by electrical deflections is anyone's guess, but an oscilloscope generates its display by sweeping an electron beam across the face of a CRT, and applying the amplified test signal to the vertical deflection circuits of the CRT. Maybe they were using a metaphor for test voltage in the input of the o'scope. Voltage.

As for measuring a magnetic field, an oscilloscope is not the instrument to use. A magnetometer is. Although it wouldn't be a big trick to use an o'scope connected to an inductor to detect dynamic magnetic fields.
The following conclusions were reached: (1) Although recorded with the facilities available to experimental physics, the events defied explanation with the means available.

No, they don't. If we assume that o'scope was connected to something, all we know is the technicians were unable to interpret their measurements. Either that, or they don't trust their instrumentation. If the latter, all results are pure rubbish.
(2) The phenomena seemed to be the result of nonperiodic, short-time forces.

Good analysis, but not revealing of much at all.
(3) They did not seem to involve pure electrodynamic effects.

They make this assumption how? The equipment they were using to test can measure nothing but electrodynamic effects.
(4) Not only were explosive events involved, but also complicated motions.

Not enough useful information in that sentence to comment on, is there?
(5) These movements seemed to be performed by intelligently controlled forces with a tendency to evade investigation.

I wonder what leads them to this judgment. They make no mention of these events being interactive with the investigators. Only that they are random. Hardly a bell ringer of intelligent control.

Anyway, a few thousand words of ghost stories. None of which suppport the existence of ghosts.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#108  Postby campermon » May 26, 2010 4:42 pm

jerome wrote:I ave called him that for 5 years, have you never noticed! ;)


:lol:

and I thought you were just a crap typist!

:lol:
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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#109  Postby jerome » May 26, 2010 4:52 pm

Hey The Metratron - obviously I can't respond dutring the deabte, but afterwards I will send you the original article - I only cited the abstract. It's in German. It's linked in the post. I tend to agree btw.

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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#110  Postby Moridin » May 27, 2010 1:06 pm

I may be horribly naive and uninformed, but perhaps the argument from the necessity of naturalism and the argument from physical minds is enough to counter the "arguments" put forward by jerome.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#111  Postby jerome » May 27, 2010 1:12 pm

Moridin wrote:I may be horribly naive and uninformed, but perhaps the argument from the necessity of naturalism and the argument from physical minds is enough to counter the "arguments" put forward by jerome.



If you can establish both are correct, it would be an a sound rebuttal of my position. It would not in anyway stop the polt phenomena being of interest however. -)

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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#112  Postby The_Metatron » May 27, 2010 1:12 pm

jerome wrote:Hey The Metratron - obviously I can't respond dutring the deabte, but afterwards I will send you the original article - I only cited the abstract. It's in German. It's linked in the post. I tend to agree btw.

j x

No need, mate. There are plenty of things to do instead of demonstrating the incompetence of the gullibles that "investigated" that scharade.

Thanks, all the same.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#113  Postby The_Metatron » May 27, 2010 1:19 pm

Moridin wrote:I may be horribly naive and uninformed, but perhaps the argument from the necessity of naturalism and the argument from physical minds is enough to counter the "arguments" put forward by jerome.

No need. Jerome put forth no arguments. He told a few ghost stories.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#114  Postby iamthereforeithink » May 27, 2010 1:19 pm

Can't say I'm not disappointed. Jerome just told us a bunch of ghost stories. I've heard plenty of ghost stories before, some of them even more compelling than these, and in English rather than German. These might be countered fairly easily. If anecdotal evidence counts, then we have evidence for a whole bunch of things, including shape- shifting alien lizards, reincarnation, "alternative" realities, psychic communication with former Atlantis residents etc.
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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#115  Postby jerome » May 27, 2010 1:21 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
jerome wrote:Hey The Metratron - obviously I can't respond dutring the deabte, but afterwards I will send you the original article - I only cited the abstract. It's in German. It's linked in the post. I tend to agree btw.

j x

No need, mate. There are plenty of things to do instead of demonstrating the incompetence of the gullibles that "investigated" that scharade.

Thanks, all the same.



They were both physicists from the Max Planck institute however? In such a respect it's hardly anecdotal???

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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#116  Postby twistor59 » May 27, 2010 1:37 pm

jerome wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
jerome wrote:Hey The Metratron - obviously I can't respond dutring the deabte, but afterwards I will send you the original article - I only cited the abstract. It's in German. It's linked in the post. I tend to agree btw.

j x

No need, mate. There are plenty of things to do instead of demonstrating the incompetence of the gullibles that "investigated" that scharade.

Thanks, all the same.



They were both physicists from the Max Planck institute however? In such a respect it's hardly anecdotal???

j x


I'm a D.Phil qualified physicist, but I'm a dick, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are others....
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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#117  Postby jerome » May 27, 2010 1:40 pm

twistor59 wrote:
jerome wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
jerome wrote:Hey The Metratron - obviously I can't respond dutring the deabte, but afterwards I will send you the original article - I only cited the abstract. It's in German. It's linked in the post. I tend to agree btw.

j x

No need, mate. There are plenty of things to do instead of demonstrating the incompetence of the gullibles that "investigated" that scharade.

Thanks, all the same.



They were both physicists from the Max Planck institute however? In such a respect it's hardly anecdotal???

j x


I'm a D.Phil qualified physicist, but I'm a dick, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are others....


:mrgreen: Yeah, true of us all! Anyone can make an honest mistake after all. :) Actually I thought the claims they made went far behind their entirely negative findings - but the full paper is worth reading -- problem is it's in German.

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Re: Ghosts - anyone up for a formal debate?

#118  Postby twistor59 » May 27, 2010 1:47 pm

jerome wrote:
:mrgreen: Yeah, true of us all! Anyone can make an honest mistake after all. :) Actually I thought the claims they made went far behind their entirely negative findings - but the full paper is worth reading -- problem is it's in German.

j x


Is the full paper publicly available ? I promise not to comment on it until after the debate is finished ! Technical German is just about OK for me these days
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#119  Postby Mr.Samsa » May 27, 2010 1:56 pm


!
MODNOTE
I've merged some posts from the original "Ghosts - anyone up for a Formal Debate?" thread as they were more applicable here. They included some of Jerome's posts but there was no way I could avoid it whilst keeping the coherency of the merged discussion - so this is just letting everyone know that his comments were moved here by me.

Thanks.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"

#120  Postby jerome » May 27, 2010 2:07 pm

OK chaps, I won't be able to reply anymore till after the debate - well Campermon and i will make passing silly asides (like i have posted again, etc, etc, and where do I send the bribe to Twistor?) , but nothing about the debate topic. :) Many thanks to Mr Samsa for the much needed merge: I really don't mind if Campermon chooses ot chat about the debate - but we will only respond to each other fin the debate itself. have fun! And yes I will arrange papers for Twistor as soon as debate ends. :)

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