Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#401 
by campermon » Aug 07, 2010 12:20 pm
twistor59 wrote:campermon wrote:jerome wrote:SO if it's fraud, its something easy to do with your hands observed that creates a "banging" loud scratch. Scratching however it clearly is: but it still sounds wrong.
So what on earth is it? Well a device would be handy -- but I still think if fraud was employed its something simple and readily available to any of the ten potential hoaxers...
j x
Controlled farting?
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I used to light farts in my younger days. There was never enough gas to get anything audible, but occasionally some spectacular flames. We had names for them all ...."reamer", "Nelson's rolling mist"....
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#402 by The_Metatron » Aug 07, 2010 12:24 pm
It is a blind assertion that these are not recordings of normal, worldly, events. I had a closer look at the waveforms Jerome posted. There are problems with them.
1. The normal knock at Andover is a waveform of a rap under unknown conditions. What was knocking (hammer) on what else (anvil)?
2. What was being knocked on (the anvil) in waveform #2, the spookyknock at Andover?
3. Unknown hammer and anvil in the Euston normal rap.
4. Unknown anvil in the Euston ghostie rap. Also, the author of this image very cheaply doubled the time base speed to expand the waveform in the time domain, making it appear to the untrained eye that the attack time was so much slower. In fact, the attack time of this "anomalous" knock is 5 milliseconds. Just about the same as the normal knock waveform from Andover.
5. The time base of the last three events that Jeremy recorded is so slow, that the actual attack time cannot be determined. I don't think Jeremy is being duplicitous here, but this shows it how he wants to see it, doesn't it?
I made my own analysis of these waveforms, and four of my own that I recorded, to see what I could see.
To get to my conclusion, here's the Euston ghostie knock again:
And, here's my knuckles on a 28mm thick beechwood table:
On my first try, I've got an extremely good approximation of the supposed "anomalous" waveform. Right down to the attack time, the decay rate, the envelope shape, pretty much all of it. The first knock is on a 12 ounce glass Corelle bowl upturned on my table. You can see it didn't change the envelope shape, or the attack time, but transmitted a lot more high frequencies to the table.
This isn't evidence of ghosties or anything else supernatural. It's just an exercise in duplicating acoustical events and recording them. There's something that Colvin and Jeremy have failed to posit: That is, what's the mechanism? Why and how, exactly, would a ghostie that can theoretically pass through solid walls develop, at will, the ability to suddenly interact with said solid object? And why and how, exactly, does the whatever-the-fuck-ghosties-are-made-of create the same waveform I just created by knocking on a hardwood table with my knuckles?
1. The normal knock at Andover is a waveform of a rap under unknown conditions. What was knocking (hammer) on what else (anvil)?
2. What was being knocked on (the anvil) in waveform #2, the spookyknock at Andover?
3. Unknown hammer and anvil in the Euston normal rap.
4. Unknown anvil in the Euston ghostie rap. Also, the author of this image very cheaply doubled the time base speed to expand the waveform in the time domain, making it appear to the untrained eye that the attack time was so much slower. In fact, the attack time of this "anomalous" knock is 5 milliseconds. Just about the same as the normal knock waveform from Andover.
5. The time base of the last three events that Jeremy recorded is so slow, that the actual attack time cannot be determined. I don't think Jeremy is being duplicitous here, but this shows it how he wants to see it, doesn't it?
I made my own analysis of these waveforms, and four of my own that I recorded, to see what I could see.
To get to my conclusion, here's the Euston ghostie knock again:
And, here's my knuckles on a 28mm thick beechwood table:
On my first try, I've got an extremely good approximation of the supposed "anomalous" waveform. Right down to the attack time, the decay rate, the envelope shape, pretty much all of it. The first knock is on a 12 ounce glass Corelle bowl upturned on my table. You can see it didn't change the envelope shape, or the attack time, but transmitted a lot more high frequencies to the table.
This isn't evidence of ghosties or anything else supernatural. It's just an exercise in duplicating acoustical events and recording them. There's something that Colvin and Jeremy have failed to posit: That is, what's the mechanism? Why and how, exactly, would a ghostie that can theoretically pass through solid walls develop, at will, the ability to suddenly interact with said solid object? And why and how, exactly, does the whatever-the-fuck-ghosties-are-made-of create the same waveform I just created by knocking on a hardwood table with my knuckles?
My blog, Skepdick.eu
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#403 by GrahamH » Aug 07, 2010 12:36 pm
Upper trace is me knocking with a 15/16" socket on a trip of wood held against a wall in the room next to the one with the microphone.
The lower trace is me knocking against a wooden bookcase fixed to the wall in the room with the microphone.
Knock three times...
One in detail...
All sound like "rapping" or "tapping". If I can find somewhere to host audio files I will post links to the wav files.
The sample rate is much higher (44KHz) than Jerome's examples, but the envelope is clear to see, and that is the supposed signature we are interested in.
Equipment:
Logitech USB headset microphone sitting on a table 30cm from a brick wall.
Audacity software (free and ideal for purpose)
Steel striker
Wodden anville
Brick wall,
Closed door.
The closed door prevents the mic from picking up the direct airborne vibration, from the next room, so the upper trace sound is conducted via the wall and emitted into the air of the test room from a large wall surface. This produces a slow rise-time.
I suggest that any method of tapping where there is obstruction of direct airborne transmission, and trasmission through solid structure, will give this characteristic envelope.
The lower trace is me knocking against a wooden bookcase fixed to the wall in the room with the microphone.
Knock three times...
One in detail...
All sound like "rapping" or "tapping". If I can find somewhere to host audio files I will post links to the wav files.
The sample rate is much higher (44KHz) than Jerome's examples, but the envelope is clear to see, and that is the supposed signature we are interested in.
Equipment:
Logitech USB headset microphone sitting on a table 30cm from a brick wall.
Audacity software (free and ideal for purpose)
Steel striker
Wodden anville
Brick wall,
Closed door.
The closed door prevents the mic from picking up the direct airborne vibration, from the next room, so the upper trace sound is conducted via the wall and emitted into the air of the test room from a large wall surface. This produces a slow rise-time.
I suggest that any method of tapping where there is obstruction of direct airborne transmission, and trasmission through solid structure, will give this characteristic envelope.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#404 by twistor59 » Aug 07, 2010 12:39 pm
The_Metatron wrote:
On my first try, I've got an extremely good approximation of the supposed "anomalous" waveform. Right down to the attack time, the decay rate, the envelope shape, pretty much all of it. The first knock is on a 12 ounce glass Corelle bowl upturned on my table. You can see it didn't change the envelope shape, or the attack time, but transmitted a lot more high frequencies to the table.
I can't get the slow attack that you're seeing unless I precede the impact with a bit of a scratch. All of this is highly uncontrolled, - different microphones, different acoustic couplings with the mic, different surfaces etc, but nevertheless a lot of fun.
It also makes no sense to me how a nebulous entity like a ghost could suddenly go into interactive mode....
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#405 by twistor59 » Aug 07, 2010 12:47 pm
My radiator bangs are a bit like GrahamH's traces
but the attack isn't smooth enough.
- radiator.jpg (56.78 KiB) Viewed 174 times
but the attack isn't smooth enough.
Butterflies and zebras and moonbeams and fairy tales
That's all she ever thinks about
Ridin' with the wind
That's all she ever thinks about
Ridin' with the wind
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#406 by The_Metatron » Aug 07, 2010 12:50 pm
Really hard to compare accurately if your displays aren't showing the time domain.
My blog, Skepdick.eu
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#407 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 12:50 pm
twistor59 wrote:OK my family now thinks I've completely flipped.
It is quite difficult to get the right attack with a bang. I've tried the radiators....
Wait till you build a psychomanteum and tell them you are trying to see dead people!
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#408 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 12:57 pm
The_Metatron wrote:
I made my own analysis of these waveforms, and four of my own that I recorded, to see what I could see.
To get to my conclusion, here's the Euston ghostie knock again:
And, here's my knuckles on a 28mm thick beechwood table:
On my first try, I've got an extremely good approximation of the supposed "anomalous" waveform. Right down to the attack time, the decay rate, the envelope shape, pretty much all of it. The first knock is on a 12 ounce glass Corelle bowl upturned on my table. You can see it didn't change the envelope shape, or the attack time, but transmitted a lot more high frequencies to the table.
That looks very similar. Can you post it on roughly the same scale as the Euston anomalous knock to allow a clearer comparison? I was not able to do this in three hours of experimentation, you did it first time. Sod's law. I am confused as to how you did it, you just knocked on the table? I'll try again now...
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#409 by Will S » Aug 07, 2010 12:58 pm
I'm finding the debate and the related discussion here quite fascinating. But where is it leading?
We've had centuries of detailed claims for the reality of all kinds of ghostly and poltergeist phenomena. We've had reports of death bed apparitions, sealed slates with ghostly writing on them, photographs of ghosts, messages emanating from ouija boards, mediums with messages from The Other Side, mediums even producing the Departed moulded in ectoplasm ... we've had dear old Borley Rectory ... all kinds of sensational stuff ... and what are we now left with? (F.X. Roll of drums.)
A detailed, technical discussion about the precise interpretation of a few sound recordings!
If ghosts really existed, is it imaginable that we'd be reduced to this method of demonstrating their existence? Is this really the best evidence that it's possible to muster?
Or could this be the psychic world's final, expiring kick?
We've had centuries of detailed claims for the reality of all kinds of ghostly and poltergeist phenomena. We've had reports of death bed apparitions, sealed slates with ghostly writing on them, photographs of ghosts, messages emanating from ouija boards, mediums with messages from The Other Side, mediums even producing the Departed moulded in ectoplasm ... we've had dear old Borley Rectory ... all kinds of sensational stuff ... and what are we now left with? (F.X. Roll of drums.)
A detailed, technical discussion about the precise interpretation of a few sound recordings!
If ghosts really existed, is it imaginable that we'd be reduced to this method of demonstrating their existence? Is this really the best evidence that it's possible to muster?
Or could this be the psychic world's final, expiring kick?
'To a thinking person, a paradox is what the smell of burning rubber is to an electrical engineer' - Sir Peter Medawar (adapted)
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#410 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 12:59 pm
twistor59 wrote:
It also makes no sense to me how a nebulous entity like a ghost could suddenly go into interactive mode....
DOn't worry about ghost for now: let's see if we can find how the acoustic effect was created. We can add ghosties in to the equation later if we really have to, for now I'm just interested in how the waveforms come about...
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#411 by The_Metatron » Aug 07, 2010 1:01 pm
jerome wrote:The_Metatron wrote:
I made my own analysis of these waveforms, and four of my own that I recorded, to see what I could see.
To get to my conclusion, here's the Euston ghostie knock again:
And, here's my knuckles on a 28mm thick beechwood table:
On my first try, I've got an extremely good approximation of the supposed "anomalous" waveform. Right down to the attack time, the decay rate, the envelope shape, pretty much all of it. The first knock is on a 12 ounce glass Corelle bowl upturned on my table. You can see it didn't change the envelope shape, or the attack time, but transmitted a lot more high frequencies to the table.
That looks very similar. Can you post it on roughly the same scale as the Euston anomalous knock to allow a clearer comparison? I was not able to do this in three hours of experimentation, you did it first time. Sod's law. I am confused as to how you did it, you just knocked on the table? I'll try again now...
j x
Jeremy,
My image is also a link to the larger image. Click on it. The scale is the same. The main difference in my test waveform is my peak amplitude. I rapped harder than the ghostie at Euston.
My blog, Skepdick.eu
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#412 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 1:02 pm
Will S wrote:I'm finding the debate and the related discussion here quite fascinating. But where is it leading?
We've had centuries of detailed claims for the reality of all kinds of ghostly and poltergeist phenomena. We've had reports of death bed apparitions, sealed slates with ghostly writing on them, photographs of ghosts, messages emanating from ouija boards, mediums with messages from The Other Side, mediums even producing the Departed moulded in ectoplasm ... we've had dear old Borley Rectory ... all kinds of sensational stuff ... and what are we now left with? (F.X. Roll of drums.)
A detailed, technical discussion about the precise interpretation of a few sound recordings!
If ghosts really existed, is it imaginable that we'd be reduced to this method of demonstrating their existence? Is this really the best evidence that it's possible to muster?
Or could this be the psychic world's final, expiring kick?
Wl to be fair we have no proof they are a) ghosts or b) trying to demonstrate their existence. We have a fascinating acoustic anomaly, which may not be that anomalous after all.
Let's face it , we have pretty much abandoned the formal debate rules for the moment to explore this curiosity in the comments thread -- but at least it's something tangible and interesting to play with?
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#413 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 1:04 pm
OK, I have a 40mm beechwood table - it's CJ by the way, Chris, or Jerome (my user name is just a contraction of my surname). I think you have clearly shown a rap can show these characteristics -0 I'm just annoyed i have not managedit yet. I am now going to set up my apparatus around the table and try...
j x
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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jerome - Name: CJ
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#414 by twistor59 » Aug 07, 2010 1:05 pm
Nope, ghostie stuff is going to be with us for a LAWNG LAWNG time yet.
Just watch daytime TV to see how much interest there still is....
Butterflies and zebras and moonbeams and fairy tales
That's all she ever thinks about
Ridin' with the wind
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#415 by campermon » Aug 07, 2010 1:07 pm
Who's 'Jeremy'?.....
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#416 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 1:08 pm
Metratron, am I misreading the time scale or does the Euston knock have three times the attack to maximum aplitude of your knock?
j x
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#417 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 1:08 pm
campermon wrote:Who's 'Jeremy'?.....
I think it's me. Jensen-Romer became Jerome, and now has become Jeremy. That's fine by me.
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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jerome - Name: CJ
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#418 by campermon » Aug 07, 2010 1:10 pm
MrsC wrote:
There's nothing as good as combustible products.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#419 by campermon » Aug 07, 2010 1:14 pm
jerome wrote:Metratron, am I misreading the time scale or does the Euston knock have three times the attack to maximum aplitude of your knock?
j x
OK...here's an idea...
Is there any way you guys can output the data into an excel table?
If so, it would make the job of comparing the waveforms much easier in that they can be superimposed on top of each other.
If you thinks that's a worthwhile idea, I don't mind collating the data and producing the graphs, just PM for my mail addy.
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Re: Peanut Gallery: "Existence of ghosts & apparitions"
#420 by jerome » Aug 07, 2010 1:16 pm
jerome wrote:OK, I have a 40mm beechwood table - it's CJ by the way, Chris, or Jerome (my user name is just a contraction of my surname). I think you have clearly shown a rap can show these characteristics -0 I'm just annoyed i have not managedit yet. I am now going to set up my apparatus around the table and try...
j x
OK, I tried to replicate the Metratrons success with a beechwood table, as I happen to have one. Mine was 12mm thicker
There is clearly some difference in our recording apparatus or something?
j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science
I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
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