please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#21  Postby Blackadder » Nov 04, 2013 8:43 am

zulumoose wrote:The thing to keep in your head is this:-

If anyone COULD actually pull off this sort of thing, can you think of any good reason why they would not seek credible verification? It would be very easy to find scientists who value their own reputations enough so that if they cannot debunk you they will seek advice and further confirmation from colleagues, so that by the time it goes public it is virtually undeniable.

Surely any scientist in an appropriate field who is worth his salt would be interested in trying to debunk something a colleague had been forced to ask for help with.


Because teh scientis is evil and dey don't want peeps to kno about stuff they don't understand demselves. Simples.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#22  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Nov 04, 2013 9:03 am

wakawakawaka wrote:hello there everyone I need some help debunking, there was this woman Johanna Michaelsen whom claimed that she had worked with a "real" psychic surgeon, and not ones debunked by randi, named pachita whom was able to cut people supposedly without any blood and transfer livers and other organs. And later Johanna claimed that all this pachita stuff was actually satanic! so can anyone help me with some debunking of this woman's claims? ive found some stuff and pictures of pachita online supposedly doing her surgeries and i dont know if she was just faking with these,but i would really like some help from people on this forum with a small investgation


Why does it matter if she claims she can perform psychic surgery? At the end of the day real surgeons probably earn more in a month than her psychic abilities could earn in a lifetime.

If a psychic offered to reveal the names of my ancestors to me, I'd decline the offer on the basis I can find that information for free without supernatural assistance.

People who claim to have a redundant supernatural ability need not to be debunked, when you can just demonstrate how inefficient their ability is. You can cure thousands of people several times over by training real surgeons, compared with a few random people using these psychics.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#23  Postby hackenslash » Nov 04, 2013 9:06 am

Yup.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#24  Postby zulumoose » Nov 04, 2013 9:18 am

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:

People who claim to have a redundant supernatural ability need not to be debunked, when you can just demonstrate how inefficient their ability is. You can cure thousands of people several times over by training real surgeons, compared with a few random people using these psychics.


This response makes no sense to me.

Investigation of a real ability like this could potentially have massive benefits, to dismiss it as less efficient than surgery is very short sighted.

That is comparable to numerous examples in the past where a new discovery has been dismissed at first as less efficient. The aeroplane, for eg, was easily dismissed as not worth the effort, and lacking practical use. So was the telephone.

Of course this is all hypothetical, since there is no credible evidence being presented that these 'abilities' are anything other than con artistry.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#25  Postby trubble76 » Nov 04, 2013 9:32 am

Even if we ignore all the other perfectly rational reasons for dismissing this guff, we can tell it's bullshit by examining the friends and family of "miracle healers". Do they live for 200 years, free from illness and degeneracy or do they have perfectly average lifespans and health concerns?

My money's on the latter.
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And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#26  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Nov 04, 2013 9:39 am

zulumoose wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:

People who claim to have a redundant supernatural ability need not to be debunked, when you can just demonstrate how inefficient their ability is. You can cure thousands of people several times over by training real surgeons, compared with a few random people using these psychics.


This response makes no sense to me.

Investigation of a real ability like this could potentially have massive benefits, to dismiss it as less efficient than surgery is very short sighted.

That is comparable to numerous examples in the past where a new discovery has been dismissed at first as less efficient. The aeroplane, for eg, was easily dismissed as not worth the effort, and lacking practical use. So was the telephone.

Of course this is all hypothetical, since there is no credible evidence being presented that these 'abilities' are anything other than con artistry.


Good point.

To qualify it. I'm not saying we should never investigate new technology if at first it appears expensive or unfesable. I'm stating that the psychic powers in question are less impressive than a whole range of techniques that don't involve supernatural intervention.

I'm all for psychic engineers, surgeons, footballers, fund managers and more, but they have a lot of work ahead of them.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#27  Postby Onyx8 » Nov 04, 2013 4:38 pm

Here you go.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#28  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 04, 2013 4:38 pm

zulumoose wrote:The thing to keep in your head is this:-

If anyone COULD actually pull off this sort of thing, can you think of any good reason why they would not seek credible verification? It would be very easy to find scientists who value their own reputations enough so that if they cannot debunk you they will seek advice and further confirmation from colleagues, so that by the time it goes public it is virtually undeniable.

Surely any scientist in an appropriate field who is worth his salt would be interested in trying to debunk something a colleague had been forced to ask for help with.

thanks for the advice, its problably the best advice i ever had from a moose dressed as a zulu
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#29  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 04, 2013 8:27 pm

i dont know why but that Michaelsen story always seems to bother me around novermber, and i was wondering, do you guys have any advice on just trying to stop the bothering stress from this story? I think it might be the fact that i met someone who claims to know pachita's grandson whom claims to have the "gift" and said he could give me contact with him! is this is a chance to try and expose this person, or should i just forget about it?
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#30  Postby BlackBart » Nov 04, 2013 9:00 pm

wakawakawaka wrote:i dont know why but that Michaelsen story always seems to bother me around novermber, and i was wondering, do you guys have any advice on just trying to stop the bothering stress from this story?


If you're genuinely getting stressed by this bullshit then I suggest you should make an appointment to see your family doctor.


I think it might be the fact that i met someone who claims to know pachita's grandson whom claims to have the "gift" and said he could give me contact with him! is this is a chance to try and expose this person, or should i just forget about it?


Forget about it and do the doctor thing.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#31  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 04, 2013 10:10 pm

that you for your advice, i dunno how such a sotry could bother a person so much
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#32  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 04, 2013 10:11 pm

well at anyrate i hope this nonsense will soon un over in my mind and never come back
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#33  Postby theropod » Nov 04, 2013 10:39 pm

Ask yourself what about this bothers you so much, as we surely can't really know this.

Keep telling yourself it's a hoax. One among many.

RS
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#34  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 05, 2013 12:14 am

theropod wrote:Ask yourself what about this bothers you so much, as we surely can't really know this.

Keep telling yourself it's a hoax. One among many.

RS

its just that well the story of Michaelsen is so messed up and yet there weren't any debunkings of her non-sense, and then not only are there "confirmations" by people with all these photos is just really messed up
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#35  Postby Onyx8 » Nov 05, 2013 1:10 am

Did you see the video I posted?

It's a fraud, fakery, trickery, con-man stuff, sleight of hand for cash, lying for money. Lot's of people are not honest and will lie to you for your money. Others will believe all kinds of rubbish to make themselves feel better for whatever reason. None of it is real. Ever.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#36  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 05, 2013 1:48 am

yes i did several times infact but you think both michaelsen and the parapsychologists whom visited her were bullshitting but for different reasons?
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#37  Postby Onyx8 » Nov 05, 2013 1:53 am

Yes.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#38  Postby wakawakawaka » Nov 05, 2013 2:09 am

Onyx8 wrote:Yes.

well i guess everytime michaelsen try to claim how impossible it would be for all these people to be lying and have such a simluar tesitmony i guess i need to remind my self how much more impossible her story is especially one backed up by para-psychologists
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#39  Postby Onyx8 » Nov 05, 2013 2:14 am

That's right. It is always helpful to remember that there isn't really such a thing as a 'para-psychologist', what there are is people desperately looking for something that will support pre-existing beliefs and wishes. She provides the service to them.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: please help me debunk the story of Johanna Michaelsen?

#40  Postby hackenslash » Nov 05, 2013 8:10 am

wakawakawaka wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Yes.

well i guess everytime michaelsen try to claim how impossible it would be for all these people to be lying and have such a simluar tesitmony i guess i need to remind my self how much more impossible her story is especially one backed up by para-psychologists whack-jobs


Fixed it for you. Get some sleep.
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