UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

Discussions on UFOs, ghosts, myths etc.

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#161  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 6:13 am

ORZIL wrote:@Spearthrower:
has a private message for you.
thanks.



Please could you share the titles and authors of the books here in the public thread?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#162  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 10:33 am

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:@Spearthrower:
has a private message for you.
thanks.



Please could you share the titles and authors of the books here in the public thread?

Is this prohibited here in this forum? :think:
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#163  Postby BlackBart » Nov 20, 2019 10:39 am

If you actually read the FUA properly you'll know it isn't.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12523
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#164  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am

ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:@Spearthrower:
has a private message for you.
thanks.



Please could you share the titles and authors of the books here in the public thread?


Is this prohibited here in this forum? :think:



I didn't say to share links to illegal content, only to share the titles and authors which is, of course, fine.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#165  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 10:52 am

Just a query though.

As I've asked for you to provide evidence, is that what these books entail?

Do I have to go and read multiple books to find the evidence you wish to share with me?

Is that really going to be different from any other anecdote? I don't know, as I don't know what kind of book you're seeking to share.

For example, if you tell me that you have seen a ghost, this obviously cannot work as evidence for me to accept the existence of ghosts - I did already specify this in terms of what evidence I would need*. This is the same situation if someone has written in a book that they have seen a ghost. The only evidence that offers me is that 2 people have said they've seen a ghost, but it doesn't give me any access to the object of their claims.



*
Spearthrower wrote:Evidence will make me change my mind. Only evidence will make me change my mind. You will note that my questions above already targeted in on evidence, so let's be clear: evidence, as you will know sharing a Latin language, has the same stem word as 'evident' or clearly, obviously, unarguably there. So even if I can't see something, if it gives off heat that I can measure, then there's something there. If I can't see something, but I can weigh it and it consistently shows the same weight, then there is something there. Obviously, being able to see something is usually sufficient, but of course, we do need to be clear that what we're seeing isn't merely an illusion.

So, something vital to the ensuing discussion is that you realize and appreciate that you asserting something at me is not going to convince me. You can save your time right now as I will not accept any assertion as establishing knowledge or existence. You will need to give me the means to empirically verify your claim for myself. This is not an arduous requirement given that your claim is predicated on you possessing knowledge, and therefore you must have some means to validate your belief, so that belief should be equally amenable to me.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#166  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 10:58 am

Spearthrower wrote:Just a query though.

As I've asked for you to provide evidence, is that what these books entail?

Do I have to go and read multiple books to find the evidence you wish to share with me?

Is that really going to be different from any other anecdote? I don't know, as I don't know what kind of book you're seeking to share.

For example, if you tell me that you have seen a ghost, this obviously cannot work as evidence for me to accept the existence of ghosts - I did already specify this in terms of what evidence I would need*. This is the same situation if someone has written in a book that they have seen a ghost. The only evidence that offers me is that 2 people have said they've seen a ghost, but it doesn't give me any access to the object of their claims.

It's just two books.
I think it will help you in the debate.
Are books always anecdotal evidence?



*
Spearthrower wrote:Evidence will make me change my mind. Only evidence will make me change my mind. You will note that my questions above already targeted in on evidence, so let's be clear: evidence, as you will know sharing a Latin language, has the same stem word as 'evident' or clearly, obviously, unarguably there. So even if I can't see something, if it gives off heat that I can measure, then there's something there. If I can't see something, but I can weigh it and it consistently shows the same weight, then there is something there. Obviously, being able to see something is usually sufficient, but of course, we do need to be clear that what we're seeing isn't merely an illusion.

So, something vital to the ensuing discussion is that you realize and appreciate that you asserting something at me is not going to convince me. You can save your time right now as I will not accept any assertion as establishing knowledge or existence. You will need to give me the means to empirically verify your claim for myself. This is not an arduous requirement given that your claim is predicated on you possessing knowledge, and therefore you must have some means to validate your belief, so that belief should be equally amenable to me.
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#167  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 11:03 am

" You will need to give me the means to empirically verify your claim for myself"

The book can help you.
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#168  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 11:04 am

It's just two books.


So go ahead and share the title and author

I think it will help you in the debate.


Not meaning to be rude or anything, but at present there is no debate as you've not offered anything at all.

Are books always anecdotal evidence?


No more than 'claims are always anecdotal evidence'. However, as this is already clearly covered in what I wrote and you cited, then you already know that, no?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#169  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 11:04 am

ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:You will need to give me the means to empirically verify your claim for myself


The book can help you.



What book?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#170  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 11:10 am

The links are in your private messages.
Good reading
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#171  Postby BlackBart » Nov 20, 2019 11:14 am

No reason not post the titles publically then. Of course if they did what you purport they do, the authors would be world famous Nobel winners. I'm betting they're not.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12523
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#172  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 12:00 pm

ORZIL wrote:The links are in your private messages.
Good reading



Ok, so to share what you sent me here in public where the 'debate' is occurring:

You sent this link:

http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/

With these titles:

The Spirits’ Book
The Mediums’ Book

Both books are written and published by Allen Kardec, the founder of Spiritism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

The first thing obvious to note is that both of these books are over 150 years old.

Yet herein is meant to contain 'evidence' of spirits. I must express skepticism at this because if they truly did contain evidence, it is very hard to imagine how we could go 150 years without this evidence having informed us of the necessary existence of spirits, resulting in most people accepting their existence today.

However, it is good to note that due to the age of the books, both are available for free to review, and both are in e-format at the links provided:

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-book ... s-book.pdf

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-book ... s-book.pdf


So onto the meat of the discussion then.

Both of the books are substantially over 400 pages, can you provide the page reference wherein I might find this evidence that you have said is contained in these books? I would also recommend you quote the actual section you want to forward in defense of your proposition.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#173  Postby Fallible » Nov 20, 2019 12:16 pm

This is the strangest way to conduct a debate that I’ve ever seen.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#174  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 12:23 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:The links are in your private messages.
Good reading



Ok, so to share what you sent me here in public where the 'debate' is occurring:

You sent this link:

http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/

With these titles:

The Spirits’ Book
The Mediums’ Book

Both books are written and published by Allen Kardec, the founder of Spiritism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

The first thing obvious to note is that both of these books are over 150 years old.

Yet herein is meant to contain 'evidence' of spirits. I must express skepticism at this because if they truly did contain evidence, it is very hard to imagine how we could go 150 years without this evidence having informed us of the necessary existence of spirits, resulting in most people accepting their existence today.

However, it is good to note that due to the age of the books, both are available for free to review, and both are in e-format at the links provided:

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-book ... s-book.pdf

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-book ... s-book.pdf


So onto the meat of the discussion then.

Both of the books are substantially over 400 pages, can you provide the page reference wherein I might find this evidence that you have said is contained in these books? I would also recommend you quote the actual section you want to forward in defense of your proposition.


there are other books of the 20th and 21st century
I'll be back here in a month.
thanks
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#175  Postby Fallible » Nov 20, 2019 12:24 pm

Jesus Christ, what the hell was the point of all that? :lol:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#176  Postby BlackBart » Nov 20, 2019 12:40 pm

Brave Sir Robin.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12523
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#177  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 2:38 pm

ORZIL wrote:
there are other books of the 20th and 21st century
I'll be back here in a month.
thanks



Before you go, could you provide page numbers and preferably quotations of what it is you want me to look at?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#178  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 3:25 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
there are other books of the 20th and 21st century
I'll be back here in a month.
thanks



Before you go, could you provide page numbers and preferably quotations of what it is you want me to look at?


read everything.
In a week you will be able to read these two books.
thanks. :thumbup:
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#179  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 3:45 pm

ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
there are other books of the 20th and 21st century
I'll be back here in a month.
thanks



Before you go, could you provide page numbers and preferably quotations of what it is you want me to look at?


read everything.
In a week you will be able to read these two books.
thanks. :thumbup:



I am obviously more than well aware of how books work, but that isn't relevant.

You have made a claim that there is evidence in these books which supports your proposition.

I need to know where that evidence is.

The existence of the books themselves is not evidence, nor can all the contents of the book be considered evidence.

Worse, it's nonsensical to expect it: if I read the entire book but find no such evidence as far as I can see - does that mean that you are wrong?

Instead, you need to cite specifically what it is that you want me to consider as evidence.

Secondly, while I am prepared to spend time discussing this with you, at no point did I agree to read 900 pages first. This is not a standard expectation for a discussion. In a standard debate or discussion, if you want me to consider a source, you provide that source.


Let me give you a quick object example so that you understand why this is the case.

Your claims about spirits existing are wrong, and I can prove it to you. You can find indisputable evidence in the book called "The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe", written by Oxford University mathematical physicist Roger Penrose.

There, my job is done. I've shown that spirits don't exist.

But wait, you say, it's got 1136 pages - what is it I need to look at?

Read it all, I say.

Are you now convinced that you were wrong about spirits? Have I actually done anything other than keep you busy running around looking to find evidence on my behalf?

Because that's what it amounts to.

In a discussion, the onus is on you - the proponent - to bring the material you want considered to me, your discussion partner. Fobbing me off by having me go do tasks on your behalf isn't a serious expectation you can have, and I can assure you, it's not one I will accept, nor one I will expect of you.


So, back to the point: page references, please. Quotations too, if you would be so kind.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 29448
Age: 45
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#180  Postby ORZIL » Nov 20, 2019 4:59 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
there are other books of the 20th and 21st century
I'll be back here in a month.
thanks



Before you go, could you provide page numbers and preferably quotations of what it is you want me to look at?


read everything.
In a week you will be able to read these two books.
thanks. :thumbup:



I am obviously more than well aware of how books work, but that isn't relevant.

You have made a claim that there is evidence in these books which supports your proposition.

I need to know where that evidence is.

The existence of the books themselves is not evidence, nor can all the contents of the book be considered evidence.

Worse, it's nonsensical to expect it: if I read the entire book but find no such evidence as far as I can see - does that mean that you are wrong?

Instead, you need to cite specifically what it is that you want me to consider as evidence.

Secondly, while I am prepared to spend time discussing this with you, at no point did I agree to read 900 pages first. This is not a standard expectation for a discussion. In a standard debate or discussion, if you want me to consider a source, you provide that source.


Let me give you a quick object example so that you understand why this is the case.

Your claims about spirits existing are wrong, and I can prove it to you. You can find indisputable evidence in the book called "The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe", written by Oxford University mathematical physicist Roger Penrose.

There, my job is done. I've shown that spirits don't exist.

But wait, you say, it's got 1136 pages - what is it I need to look at?

Read it all, I say.

Are you now convinced that you were wrong about spirits? Have I actually done anything other than keep you busy running around looking to find evidence on my behalf?

Because that's what it amounts to.

In a discussion, the onus is on you - the proponent - to bring the material you want considered to me, your discussion partner. Fobbing me off by having me go do tasks on your behalf isn't a serious expectation you can have, and I can assure you, it's not one I will accept, nor one I will expect of you.


So, back to the point: page references, please. Quotations too, if you would be so kind.


read the introduction to the study of spiritist doctrine
there are 17 items
above all from item 3 to item 6 of the Spirits' Book
but read all this introduction are 17 items
then I indicate what to read in the Mediums' Book
Good reading
User avatar
ORZIL
 
Name: ORZIL SANZIO
Posts: 50

Country: Spain
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Paranormal & Supernatural

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest