UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#201  Postby Fallible » Nov 20, 2019 8:33 pm

I’m not trying to be mean, but you knew this forum was an English language based one before you joined. You joined anyway in order to have a “debate’ which, according to you, is unlikely to happen due to your trouble with the language. What exactly are you trying to achieve?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#202  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 20, 2019 10:33 pm

ORZIL wrote:
what is your opinion about Rationalism?
Is scientific skepticism against Rationalism?
:thumbup:



Well, we have to be clear first as the word can mean different things.

In Philosophy, rationalism is the position that reason is the source and test of knowledge.

More generally, rationalism would mean that belief and opinions should be grounded on knowledge rather than, say, tradition, or conviction, or emotions.

The former I can't quite accept because I am more of an empiricist - the proof of the pudding is in the pudding itself. Our reason is all we've got, and it's vital to employ it, but it can also produce the wrong answers. We also need to remember that it is our reason which tells us that our reason is sound - you'll find no end of people who are absolutely convinced that they're right about everything (illusory superiority) - according to their reason - but from other peoples' perspective, their reasoning is not sound. As such, we need a better arbiter of what's true than just our thoughts or capacity to think through things. For that I would say that empirical evidence and observation is superior.

But that's only within the remit of deciding on what's true, what exists, what is manifest in the universe. I am happy to defer to emotional reasoning where it's warranted. I don't need to reason out why I find a particular scene beautiful, or why I value honesty, or what taste appeals to me - these aren't relevant to reason, they are just to be enjoyed or inspired by.

The second definition, though, I think is vital... and I think it's a component sorely missing in much of humanity. I think it needs to be instilled from a young age through critical thinking exercises. People are far too easily exploited and misled when they deny knowledge in favour of their opinions which they mistake as fact. In worst case scenarios, it can result in the very worst behaviors of humanity - absolute certainty is a very dangerous thing for us ground apes. Reasoning grounded on knowledge tends to produce the opposite result: the more we know, the more complex things are, and the less we can pretend to sufficient understanding to maintain the self-delusion of certainty.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#203  Postby ORZIL » Nov 21, 2019 3:06 pm

Fallible wrote:I’m not trying to be mean, but you knew this forum was an English language based one before you joined. You joined anyway in order to have a “debate’ which, according to you, is unlikely to happen due to your trouble with the language. What exactly are you trying to achieve?


I want to know how skeptical thinking works.
What Does Invisible Pink Unicorn Mean? :smile:
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#204  Postby BlackBart » Nov 21, 2019 4:28 pm

A faint whiff of hosiery.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#205  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 21, 2019 4:38 pm

ORZIL wrote:I want to know how skeptical thinking works.


One way it works is by being skeptical that you are not lying in the above statement. That's because...

ORZIL wrote:What Does Invisible Pink Unicorn Mean?


... is something you could look up for yourself on the internet, the use of which you seem to have a rudimentary understanding. You could even read about it in Spanish. Don't thank me too profusely just yet. Although my remarks might resemble an attempt to assist you, that is not what my primary aim is.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#206  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2019 4:55 pm

ORZIL wrote:
I want to know how skeptical thinking works.


I've given you examples above.

Do you have any questions about what I've written, or would you like to challenge anything?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#207  Postby Fallible » Nov 21, 2019 8:53 pm

ORZIL wrote:
Fallible wrote:I’m not trying to be mean, but you knew this forum was an English language based one before you joined. You joined anyway in order to have a “debate’ which, according to you, is unlikely to happen due to your trouble with the language. What exactly are you trying to achieve?


I want to know how skeptical thinking works.


So in order to do that, you start with a claim about what ghosts are, retreat to a PM with one member, ask him to read 2 whole books about spiritism and make no post which is longer than 4 sentences. Sounds legit.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#208  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2019 8:56 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism
In philosophy, skepticism can refer to:

a mode of inquiry that emphasizes critical scrutiny, caution, and intellectual rigor;
a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing;
a set of claims about the limitations of human knowledge and the proper response to such limitations.


And that's pretty well all you need to know. Hold belief in proportion to evidence. Avoid bias. Avoid overconfidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn
The IPU is used to argue that supernatural beliefs are arbitrary by, for example, replacing the word God in any theistic statement with Invisible Pink Unicorn.[3] The mutually exclusive attributes of pinkness and invisibility, coupled with the inability to disprove the IPU's existence, satirize properties that some theists attribute to a theistic deity.[4]
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#209  Postby ORZIL » Nov 21, 2019 9:57 pm

Fallible wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Fallible wrote:I’m not trying to be mean, but you knew this forum was an English language based one before you joined. You joined anyway in order to have a “debate’ which, according to you, is unlikely to happen due to your trouble with the language. What exactly are you trying to achieve?


I want to know how skeptical thinking works.


So in order to do that, you start with a claim about what ghosts are, retreat to a PM with one member, ask him to read 2 whole books about spiritism and make no post which is longer than 4 sentences. Sounds legit.


This video refutes this belief in ghosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIjDncKZbM
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#210  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2019 10:25 pm

I don't know what I expected from that video, but it wasn't that.

I don't see much connection with the post it's a reply to, but I do like Sean Carroll.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#211  Postby Fallible » Nov 21, 2019 10:38 pm

ORZIL wrote:
Fallible wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
Fallible wrote:I’m not trying to be mean, but you knew this forum was an English language based one before you joined. You joined anyway in order to have a “debate’ which, according to you, is unlikely to happen due to your trouble with the language. What exactly are you trying to achieve?


I want to know how skeptical thinking works.


So in order to do that, you start with a claim about what ghosts are, retreat to a PM with one member, ask him to read 2 whole books about spiritism and make no post which is longer than 4 sentences. Sounds legit.


This video refutes this belief in ghosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIjDncKZbM


Ok...and? So what?
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She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#212  Postby Svartalf » Nov 21, 2019 11:33 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Is this a serious thread?

supposedly, I don't know that Orzil character, but the thread starts to feel like the one about evolution with JJ as the woo pusher.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#213  Postby Svartalf » Nov 21, 2019 11:35 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
ORZIL wrote:
in the Spirits' Book
from page 23 to page 30
item 3 to item 5 of the introduction.



Aha, finally... thank you!


ORZIL wrote:I don't know the english language
I use a translator who misses the word.


Ok, I understand. I will try to be direct in meaning and not use idiomatic language or expressions.

I'll start addressing these items in the next post to keep this clear.

The book of Spirits? seriously? you intend to find in that book evidence of anything beyond the fact that allan kardec was a glib liear and that bored bourgeois will believe anything?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#214  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 3:52 pm

ORZIL wrote:
This video refutes this belief in ghosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIjDncKZbM


Ok, so the video's core points are:

1) The mind is the brain.

2) The brain is made of atoms.

3) We know how atoms work.

4) There is no way for "you" to persist after death.


So do you accept those points?

Or do you challenge any of them?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#215  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 22, 2019 3:59 pm

My personal favorite thing about these ghost hunters is to watch them scurry about with all manners of test and measurement equipment. All the while having no fucking idea what they are measuring or how that thing being measured correlates in any way to ghosts.

It’s just kids playing with toys.


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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#216  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 4:38 pm

The_Metatron wrote:My personal favorite thing about these ghost hunters is to watch them scurry about with all manners of test and measurement equipment. All the while having no fucking idea what they are measuring or how that thing being measured correlates in any way to ghosts.

It’s just kids playing with toys.



I always want to know why it's just special humans that have special souls that can go on and be soul things in the after-death, and if it's not just humans that have souls, why don't we see ant ghosts all the fucking time? There must have been many orders of magnitude more ants that lived and died than humans, yet it's always a girl in a old fashioned dress, or a stern man in a bowler hat that are reported... never ghost ants!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#217  Postby Fallible » Nov 22, 2019 7:32 pm

Now that’s just wrong. There are also monks and nuns.
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She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#218  Postby BlackBart » Nov 22, 2019 7:48 pm

Its claimed a ghost bear haunts the Tower of London. Just saying.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#219  Postby Fallible » Nov 22, 2019 7:52 pm

You know,I think we are all overlooking Gef the talking mongoose from Cashen’s Gap. :coffee:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#220  Postby BlackBart » Nov 22, 2019 8:02 pm

Well, yes. Obviously.

And how could we forget Wortfish's Warp Drive Enabled Psychic Ghost cat?
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