UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#41  Postby laklak » Nov 13, 2018 3:02 pm

I seen the Devil, Ol' Scratch hisself. He walked his sister down the aisle when I married her because their Dad wouldn't attend.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#42  Postby laklak » Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm

electricwhiteboy wrote:
As someone who has seen the literal devil in a church yard, a manifestation witnessed by others, I can still categorically respond that it's all bollocks.


Shame it wasn't at the crossroads, you'd be a blues legend.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#43  Postby electricwhiteboy » Nov 13, 2018 3:13 pm

laklak wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:
As someone who has seen the literal devil in a church yard, a manifestation witnessed by others, I can still categorically respond that it's all bollocks.


Shame it wasn't at the crossroads, you'd be a blues legend.


Wouldn't ever stretch to legendary, but I play and sing the blues alright without a contract with Ol' Scratch.

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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#44  Postby Evolving » Nov 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Not bad. :)
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#45  Postby laklak » Nov 13, 2018 4:29 pm

Soundin' damn good, my man!
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#46  Postby electricwhiteboy » Nov 13, 2018 9:01 pm

Cheers, folks. Man, I miss that band. Best outfit I've played with. /derail.

Back to Ol' Scratch. I was a kid on a historic tour of my local Church. A woman screamed at something out of nowhere, I looked over and saw what can only be described as a bat faced, reptilian looking blue demon in a black robe. It looked me square in the eyes and completely vanished in thin air. The whole event was over in about 10 seconds. I didn't mention it at all at the time. If my mind worked in a different way I would give complete legitimacy to the experience. It was the most shit scary thing. Thing is it did feel completely unreal, I've never had any problems with believing it was a trick of the mind. My brain heard an adult scream, I couldn't see anything so my perception filled in the gaps with the Devil. It's better evolutionary speaking to run from a false positive, than to ignore a potential false negative. It's the fucking weirdest damn thing that has happened to me.

I think it's "immunized" me a bit because I've never had a similar experience. Any interest I've had in the paranormal or the occult has been an effort to rationally replicate and understand that experience. Other than a few spooky but explainable coincidences, nothing, and I'm not at all surprised. I guess I don't rationally expect anything to happen when visiting a haunted location, so I'm not remotely scared of the paranormal and my brain doesn't get the terror jolt needed. I don't fancy trying to purposely get a case of the screaming ab dabs to hallucinate in terror. I've sifted about in the ruins of Crowley's home, been to just about every haunted location in Edinburgh. Yeah, some places have a vibe, but so far I've seen nothing to suggest there is any substance to it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#47  Postby Fila » Feb 18, 2019 8:05 am

I don't believe in ghosts.., but I don't mock people if they do.

1) Science has been wrong maaaaaaaaaaany times. And we always "KNEW" what was right or wrong.., with 100% certainty.

2) Unless I can scientifically DISPROVE ghosts.., then its not disproven.
Yes.., we can debunk individual cases.., but to cherrypick data to form a conclusion is bias and unscientific.

I'm a "scientifically minded" person. But these topics (ghosts, aliens, religions and god) are some of the BIGGEST questions related to ourselves. Possibly some of the most important topics.., ever.., go ignored by scientists.

What if it wasn't Science VS Religion?
Science is all about finding the truth. A tool used to test whether a hypothesis is true or false.., not used to dismiss it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#48  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 18, 2019 9:39 am

Fila wrote:I don't believe in ghosts.., but I don't mock people if they do.


Nobody says you have to mock anybody.

Fila wrote:I'm a "scientifically minded" person.


Do you understand what "paying lip service" denotes? I do. "Scientific-mindedness" has relatively little to do with mocking people who don't support their claims. What you end up with is that science has a lot to do with picking the right problem to work on.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#49  Postby Fila » Feb 18, 2019 9:29 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Nobody says you have to mock anybody.

Nobody.., including me. I didn't say that either. My point was others should calm down.
If you can't conclusively prove its impossible for a ghost to exist.., then your as biased as those claiming ghosts MUST be real based on nothing. The problem is neither side can see the hypocrisy.., or tolerate opposing views.
Same with religion. Same with UFOs. This just promotes anger, violence and prevents progression.
Rather than aaaaaaallll these people spending time hating and mocking and appearing SMARTER than others.., (which leads nowhere)., why not work together to find an answer? Why is it US vs THEM?
Instead of spending 2019 trawling through ghost stories hoping one will provide SCIENTIFICALLY CONCLUSIVE RESULTS and then get angry when they don't. Why not spend 12 moths thinking of ways to confirm or bust the idea?
Which would be more productive? (Or are most people just here for the LOLs and to mock others)

Cito di Pense wrote:Do you understand what "paying lip service" denotes? I do. "Scientific-mindedness" has relatively little to do with mocking people who don't support their claims. What you end up with is that science has a lot to do with picking the right problem to work on.

Who has the authority.., or what is the criteria to make a decision on what problems are worth looking into?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#50  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 18, 2019 9:56 pm

Fila wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Nobody says you have to mock anybody.

Nobody.., including me. I didn't say that either. My point was others should calm down.
If you can't conclusively prove its impossible for a ghost to exist.., then your as biased as those claiming ghosts MUST be real based on nothing. The problem is neither side can see the hypocrisy.., or tolerate opposing views.
Same with religion. Same with UFOs. This just promotes anger, violence and prevents progression.
Rather than aaaaaaallll these people spending time hating and mocking and appearing SMARTER than others.., (which leads nowhere)., why not work together to find an answer? Why is it US vs THEM?
Instead of spending 2019 trawling through ghost stories hoping one will provide SCIENTIFICALLY CONCLUSIVE RESULTS and then get angry when they don't. Why not spend 12 moths thinking of ways to confirm or bust the idea?
Which would be more productive? (Or are most people just here for the LOLs and to mock others)

Cito di Pense wrote:Do you understand what "paying lip service" denotes? I do. "Scientific-mindedness" has relatively little to do with mocking people who don't support their claims. What you end up with is that science has a lot to do with picking the right problem to work on.

Who has the authority.., or what is the criteria to make a decision on what problems are worth looking into?


Science nowadays is a collaborative effort, and publication almost always involves a sponsoring institution. The days are well past of the lonely genius working away in a chilly garret somewhere, ferreting out the secrets of the universe. In practice, there are adversarial relationships because of competition for funding, but it's not an 'us vs. them' thing, except in jest.

The problem with ghost stories is that they pre-date the scientific method by millennia. Someone like you may use that fact to give the stories some kind of priority, but really, the odds are that the people who originated ghost stories were ignorant of a great deal that we take for granted, and it's a crude kind of ancestor-worship to speculate that they were somehow wiser than we are.

Asking someone to prove something does not exist, in order to keep your story alive is just very old and very bad poetry. If you want to promote the scientific investigation of ghosts, no one is stopping you, but don't come begging people to collaborate with you at the same time you're begging them to drop the mocking of anecdotes that are simply lame copies of very old and very tired stories.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#51  Postby Fila » Feb 19, 2019 3:14 am

Cito di Pense wrote:The problem with ghost stories is that they pre-date the scientific method by millennia. Someone like you may use that fact to give the stories some kind of priority, but really, the odds are that the people who originated ghost stories were ignorant of a great deal that we take for granted, and it's a crude kind of ancestor-worship to speculate that they were somehow wiser than we are.

I don't even believe in ghosts. I cannot dismiss it.., and promote tolerance. But this doesn't mean I would give old stories priority over recent data. If I'm going to listen to stories.., I'd prefer the opposite.

Cito di Pense wrote:Asking someone to prove something does not exist, in order to keep your story alive is just very old and very bad poetry.

Bad poetry? Perhaps.
Old? Perhaps.
Correct? Yes.
Scientifically accurate? Yes.

You say a witness MUST prove what they saw.., or basically shut up. Yes sir comrade dictator. Screw basic rights, right?
Why can't they say what they saw? What affect does it have? Others may believe him? Okay.., what's up with that? Do you think next comes a cult of ghosts? And they all give their money away? All these billionaires getting rich and famous by saying they saw a ghost? What's up?

What if they ARE having mental issues.., and you just laugh at them, and tell them to shut up?
Sorry mate.., but I think that's pretty cruel to treat the mentally disabled that way. People are people.


Cito di Pense wrote:If you want to promote the scientific investigation of ghosts, no one is stopping you, but don't come begging people to collaborate with you at the same time you're begging them to drop the mocking of anecdotes that are simply lame copies of very old and very tired stories.

Seeing things from the other perspective. Both sides. Unbiased. Not sticking to the same routine.., till death.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#52  Postby laklak » Feb 19, 2019 3:35 am

I ain't afraid of no ghosts.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#53  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 19, 2019 5:24 am

Fila wrote:
You say a witness MUST prove what they saw.., or basically shut up. Yes sir comrade dictator. Screw basic rights, right?
Why can't they say what they saw? What affect does it have? Others may believe him? Okay.., what's up with that? Do you think next comes a cult of ghosts? And they all give their money away? All these billionaires getting rich and famous by saying they saw a ghost? What's up?

What if they ARE having mental issues.., and you just laugh at them, and tell them to shut up?
Sorry mate.., but I think that's pretty cruel to treat the mentally disabled that way. People are people.


You misunderstand; I am not against free expression. Let them tell ghost stories. While they're busy with that, I'll check in from time to time and see if anyone's actually trying to study ghosts, instead of just complaining about skeptics.

Fila wrote:
Seeing things from the other perspective. Both sides. Unbiased. Not sticking to the same routine.., till death.


Why? Because people who like telling stories also enjoy believing their audience is being entertained? I'm not biased. When I hear a ghost story that I find entertaining, I will applaud its creativity. When you actually talk about why seeing things from the other perspective is beneficial when dealing with ghost stories, I'll pay more attention, because begging for attention for its own sake is for four-year-olds who feel lonesome.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#54  Postby Fila » Feb 19, 2019 6:00 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Why? Because people who like telling stories also enjoy believing their audience is being entertained? I'm not biased. When I hear a ghost story that I find entertaining, I will applaud its creativity. When you actually talk about why seeing things from the other perspective is beneficial when dealing with ghost stories, I'll pay more attention, because begging for attention for its own sake is for four-year-olds who feel lonesome.

People who see ghosts;
1) Are lying (and know about it)
2) Believe they saw something (real or hallucination)

What is your procedure for telling one from the other?
Should we mock all of them regardless?

Sorry.., I'm not attacking you. I'm sure others are reading this and choosing not to step in.

If the individual comes out with some elaborate story which almost reads like a novel.., my brain dozes off.
If someone just says "Hey mate.., I saw some strange thing last night. Looked like a ghost. Was glowing and hovering and said boo" then that's fine. Took me all of 20 seconds to hear it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#55  Postby Fenrir » Feb 19, 2019 6:43 am

3) are misunderstanding or misrepresenting things they see and ascribing causes from folk mythology.

4) are seeing things which aren't there after being primed with folk mythology, i.e. imagining stuff.

5) have been pranked

6 -> infinity. Any number of other possibilities.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#56  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 19, 2019 9:00 am

Ghosts in these days of mass photography? No such thing. An insult to any normal mind.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#57  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 19, 2019 11:28 am

Fila wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Why? Because people who like telling stories also enjoy believing their audience is being entertained? I'm not biased. When I hear a ghost story that I find entertaining, I will applaud its creativity. When you actually talk about why seeing things from the other perspective is beneficial when dealing with ghost stories, I'll pay more attention, because begging for attention for its own sake is for four-year-olds who feel lonesome.

People who see ghosts;
1) Are lying (and know about it)
2) Believe they saw something (real or hallucination)

What is your procedure for telling one from the other?
Should we mock all of them regardless?

Sorry.., I'm not attacking you. I'm sure others are reading this and choosing not to step in.

If the individual comes out with some elaborate story which almost reads like a novel.., my brain dozes off.
If someone just says "Hey mate.., I saw some strange thing last night. Looked like a ghost. Was glowing and hovering and said boo" then that's fine. Took me all of 20 seconds to hear it.


Thing is, I don't care what they believe they saw, just like I don't care which god a person believes in. You have not provided a first good reason to listen to them other than your insistence that someone with a story to tell should be given a hearing.

I mean, what if there really are ghosts, and these people have special powers? Queue previously issued remarks about spoon-bending. Should I believe in ghosts, or should I believe in the special powers of people who see ghosts, and investigate further?

Most of us don't see ghosts, and I chalk that up to the normal distribution. Notice the word normal, which tells you what normal denotes. From which wing of the normal distribution come the folks who say they've seen a ghost? For the most part, it isn't university professors or engineers with lots of patents. How many prominent politicians have you heard of for whom seeing ghosts is a big thing?
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#58  Postby Fila » Feb 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Thing is, I don't care what they believe they saw, just like I don't care which god a person believes in. You have not provided a first good reason to listen to them other than your insistence that someone with a story to tell should be given a hearing.

I said that these are probably some of the biggest question in life.., so why not look into them?
How's that for a reason? Shining the light of science, into the dark unknown.
Is that a valid reason?

I'll ask you a question (that will go unanswered). Why NOT allow people to look into ghosts and UFOs etc?
What is the downside? What affect does it have?

Cito di Pense wrote:I mean, what if there really are ghosts, and these people have special powers? Queue previously issued remarks about spoon-bending. Should I believe in ghosts, or should I believe in the special powers of people who see ghosts, and investigate further?

You don't NEED to believe anything.
Choose a field that interests you.., form a hypothesis.., design experiments and observations to test your hypothesis.
I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong forum.
This is more for wierdos to tell ghost stories.., and weirdos to mock them.
There's no science being done here.., so I think I might just leave.

Cito di Pense wrote:Most of us don't see ghosts, and I chalk that up to the normal distribution. Notice the word normal, which tells you what normal denotes. From which wing of the normal distribution come the folks who say they've seen a ghost? For the most part, it isn't university professors or engineers with lots of patents. How many prominent politicians have you heard of for whom seeing ghosts is a big thing?

Notice the word normal.., which tells me what normal denotes?
What does that mean? Normal distribution? Of what? What is being distributed?
I understand people don't normally see ghosts.., as its a minority. But what does all your wording mean? I'd love to learn more.

For the most part? How can you be so sure?
I can't listen to these assumptions that are passed off as fact.Unless you can provide me with a sample showing you've looked at professionals and asked if they believe in ghosts or not. Or have seen one.

Then.., if you REALLY want good marks.., question your result by adding variables like.., unwillingness to come forward with such claims for fear of ridicule and potential shunning from society and loss of respect and weight. (I.e. I know people who don't share their stories with others.., and only told me years into the relationship in confidence).

But.., I think I'm done. I'll hang around wrapping up replies sent to me.., but I won't be adding content.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#59  Postby Fallible » Feb 19, 2019 9:33 pm

Why do you say these are some of the biggest questions in life? To whom?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#60  Postby Sendraks » Feb 19, 2019 9:36 pm

Fila wrote:
I said that these are probably some of the biggest question in life.., so why not look into them?

Just because you think they are some of the biggest questions in life, isn't a compelling reason to look into them unless you are able to provide some reason that there is some sort of special gravity attached to what you "think."
"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion." - Arthur C Clarke

"'Science doesn't know everything' - Well science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop" - Dara O'Brian
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