UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#61  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 20, 2019 9:13 am

Fila wrote:
I'll ask you a question (that will go unanswered). Why NOT allow people to look into ghosts and UFOs etc?
What is the downside? What affect does it have?


Do you contend there is anything systematic about reports of sightings of ghosts? No? Then there is nothing systematic to investigate, and you are simply proposing that people go on fishing expeditions to see what they catch.

The downside is that they won't catch anything, and will have wasted plenty of time (and possibly even money) doing it. There is no upside if there is nothing systematic to confirm about reports of ghost sightings. One short definition of science is that it is a field where knowledge has been made systematic. As pointed out, this starts with observations that adapt to a hypothesis that systematizes them, which investigators try to support with further data/observations that are not part of the data that led to the hypothesis. So far, no hypothesis that systematizes ghosts.

There's nothing that prevents anyone from studying ghosts or, rather, reports of sightings of ghosts, but they have to do it at their own behest, and begging me for support is not going to get very far if they don't have anything systematic to investigate.

This goes for UFOs as well. Your threads on these topics could be combined WLOG ("without loss of generality").
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#62  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 20, 2019 10:20 am

I am quite sure a third thread will appear. The usual pattern.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#63  Postby Hermit » Feb 20, 2019 10:42 am

Fila wrote:I'll ask you a question (that will go unanswered). Why NOT allow people to look into ghosts and UFOs etc?

Of course your question will go unanswered, if for no other reason than that people are allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc. If you have any evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#64  Postby Hermit » Feb 20, 2019 11:04 am

Fila wrote:I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong forum.
Considering that the only two threads you posted in are bout paranormal aliens and ghosts, I suggest a more suitable forum for you would be a forum that deals with them.

Fila wrote:There's no science being done here
Scientifically, of course.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#65  Postby electricwhiteboy » Feb 20, 2019 11:07 am

Ghost Hunting is a long lonely crapshoot where nothing happens. There isn't an experiment you can run for ghosts. We don't have any unexplained data that could be ghosts or even a working mechanism for ghosts. The model with the most explanation is that "hauntings" are always either a trick of perception or a knowing fraud.

Filo, can you think of how you can "test" for ghosts. Because I don't have the slightest clue, assuming they exist. We've run out of things it could be. Now, it could be what's actually going on is beyond our comprehension. Some incredibly rare and completely unpredictable quirk of physics allows it. And it leaves no evidence. And is utterly undetectable by any scientific instrument. Something that gives the appearance of an entirely subjective experience, but has an objective cause we completely cannot detect, explain or predict. You start to see why the default position is that its currently complete bollocks unless hitherto completely unforseen information comes to light. That kind of event is known as a Black Swan Theory. Until they happen, the working hypothesis stands.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#66  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 20, 2019 11:31 am

electricwhiteboy wrote:There isn't an experiment you can run for ghosts. We don't have any unexplained data that could be ghosts or even a working mechanism for ghosts.


That's what I said. Fila is asking why we don't design an experiment, then. Well, there are no systematic data on the basis of which to design an experiment. Circular reasoning is circular. It looks as if Fila is recommending we just make some shit up.

It's not that we have unexplained data; we have anecdotes about purportedly unexplained events. Fila is overflowing with anecdotes about purportedly unexplained events, but the anecdotes aren't systematic, except to the extent that people copy each other's stories, and besides that, they are only anecdotes. We have some understanding of why people tell stories.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#67  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 12:56 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Do you contend there is anything systematic about reports of sightings of ghosts? No? Then there is nothing systematic to investigate,

Incorrect. Your statement only backs up the fact that witnesses to these events CANNOT gather sufficient evidence.
And that there is no official procedure in place to collate data. If someone wanted to step in for initial research purposes, before forming a hypothesis to test.., then they would create a better reporting system.

Cito di Pense wrote:and you are simply proposing that people go on fishing expeditions to see what they catch.
I never said that. I am not telling people to go "fishing". I'm not telling people to quit there jobs, and buy equipment to research the possibility of ghosts being real or not.

Cito di Pense wrote:The downside is that they won't catch anything, and will have wasted plenty of time (and possibly even money) doing it.

This is your problem. Your forming conclusions BEFORE an investigation.., and using that CONCLUSION as PROOF they shouldn't try.

Cito di Pense wrote:There's nothing that prevents anyone from studying ghosts or, rather, reports of sightings of ghosts, but they have to do it at their own behest, and begging me for support is not going to get very far if they don't have anything systematic to investigate.

Wow, I'm new here. They beg you for support? What are the witnesses asking you to do? How many times?
Most witnesses I have heard from merely state what happened.., and that's it. One sighting. The majority.
IF.., you are dealing with someone who see's ghosts daily.., and is calling you for money? Ignore them, or call the police.

If its just someone asking for basic advice? Dude.., this is a web forum, for conversations.
Calm down, no one is forcing you to reply. It seems "sceptical" people here have lots of anger issues.

Cito di Pense wrote:This goes for UFOs as well. Your threads on these topics could be combined WLOG ("without loss of generality").

That's correct. I am making the same point about the evidence paradox.., however my thread asks other questions regarding UFOs and aliens. Its not JUST about the evidence paradox.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#68  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 12:58 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:I am quite sure a third thread will appear. The usual pattern.

I have only made one thread...
What are you referring to?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#69  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 12:58 am

Fila wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:I am quite sure a third thread will appear. The usual pattern.

I have only made one thread...
What are you referring to?
And can you please explain what the "usual pattern" is with threads?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#70  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 1:04 am

Hermit wrote:Of course your question will go unanswered, if for no other reason than that people are allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc. If you have any evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.

So why ridicule them in threads like this?
I understand legally they have the right.., but obviously that's not what I'm referring to in CONTEXT of the discussion here.

Hermit wrote:Considering that the only two threads you posted in are bout paranormal aliens and ghosts, I suggest a more suitable forum for you would be a forum that deals with them.

Interesting. So you are saying that UFOs, ghosts, the idea of a god.., or anything similar.., cannot be looked into scientifically?
It should ONLY be restricted to sceptic websites.., or ghost / UFO forums?

Can you please go into more detail as to WHY this is?
Please respond in detail. Please. Everyone else plays the game "Nah.., I don't need to explain." Or.., "LOL". Or I never hear back. I'd really like to hear what you have to say. You may be right.., I would like to know.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#71  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 1:35 am

electricwhiteboy wrote:Ghost Hunting is a long lonely crapshoot where nothing happens. There isn't an experiment you can run for ghosts. We don't have any unexplained data that could be ghosts or even a working mechanism for ghosts. The model with the most explanation is that "hauntings" are always either a trick of perception or a knowing fraud.

Thank you for the reply. I wouldn't have a clue on what equipment we could try using to detect a ghost.., but we are only now still coming up with experiments and devices capable of testing Einsteins theory. The universe has many things we cannot detect with our senses, so we rely on technology. Our knowledge is only as good as the tech we can create. People can imagine and formulate the ideas well before the tech is invented to prove it.

I doubt any of us on a website forum could figure out what to try.., which is why I am suggesting science steps in.
There are many scientists graduating at my uni each year.., looking for work. Some are even religious.
Most funding for research comes from business. Universities are 2nd, and government research is last.
People then claim that its a waste of money.., but it doesn't need to come from you or me. And if some business person, or investor wants to fund something.., then its THEIR waste of money.., from YOUR perspective.

They would probably say YOU (not you.., Bart and others) are wasting TIME spending each day on a forum about things they don't believe in., just to get angry or make jokes.., every.., single.., day. Selective spending I think they call it. We all save money in one area.., and waste on another. Sorry, not you personally.., judging from your writing style, it seems you are a rational person. Thank you, its refreshing to read after a week of emotionally driven responses.

electricwhiteboy wrote:Filo, can you think of how you can "test" for ghosts. Because I don't have the slightest clue, assuming they exist. We've run out of things it could be. Now, it could be what's actually going on is beyond our comprehension. Some incredibly rare and completely unpredictable quirk of physics allows it. And it leaves no evidence. And is utterly undetectable by any scientific instrument. Something that gives the appearance of an entirely subjective experience, but has an objective cause we completely cannot detect, explain or predict. You start to see why the default position is that its currently complete bollocks unless hitherto completely unforseen information comes to light. That kind of event is known as a Black Swan Theory. Until they happen, the working hypothesis stands.

If people are seeing them, and hearing them.., then our eyes and ears are picking up light and sound.
That suggests a simple camera and microphone should detect what our eyes are detecting.

If we can get a person to witness a ghost.., but the camera / mic doesn't detect it.., then we can deduce 3 options.
1) The individual is lying
2) The individual is hallucinating
3) The object doesn't project light or produce sound waves.

Testing number (1) may prove difficult. Perhaps creating fake tests to check the subject. Pentothal?
Number 2 could be tested by bringing in other test subjects to see if they confirm anything.
If number 3 is the potential answer, then we are stuck. It would take another Einstein to produce equations that could account for ghosts. Providing the math is solid, and it makes sense. Then it would be the same as other theories.., waiting for technology to be created so they can be tested (gravitational waves).
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#72  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2019 1:45 am

Fila wrote:
Hermit wrote:Of course your question will go unanswered, if for no other reason than that people are allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc. If you have any evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.

So why ridicule them in threads like this?

Having asked you to provide evidence for your claim that "people are not allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc" you ignore the question and change the topic instead. Nice one. There's a name for that sleight of hand.

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Fila wrote:
Hermit wrote:Considering that the only two threads you posted in are bout paranormal aliens and ghosts, I suggest a more suitable forum for you would be a forum that deals with them.

Interesting. So you are saying that UFOs, ghosts, the idea of a god.., or anything similar.., cannot be looked into scientifically?
It should ONLY be restricted to sceptic websites.., or ghost / UFO forums?

Can you please go into more detail as to WHY this is?

No, I cannot, mainly because I never said that "UFOs, ghosts, the idea of a god.., or anything similar.., cannot be looked into scientifically", nor did I say that "it should ONLY be restricted to sceptic websites.., or ghost / UFO forums".

Once again: Don't put words into my mouth. I am quite capable of doing that all on my own.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#73  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 1:46 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:There isn't an experiment you can run for ghosts. We don't have any unexplained data that could be ghosts or even a working mechanism for ghosts.


That's what I said. Fila is asking why we don't design an experiment, then. Well, there are no systematic data on the basis of which to design an experiment. Circular reasoning is circular. It looks as if Fila is recommending we just make some shit up.

Unless you have the qualifications to conduct thorough research, then no.
I am not telling anyone here to pretend to do "scienceing" and make stuff up.
Why your mind jumps automatically to that.., merely shows YOUR thought pattern. You need to get off the conspiracy sites man.., your stressing out and making yourself negative and paranoid over this stuff.

I need to get off this site too. Its very toxic and one big loop of people saying the exact same things everyday. Very weird.
I need to have this conversation with scientists.., who are humble with knowledgeable relevant advice.

This was a weird experience. Emotions are high on this website.., and people are VERY angry and demanding.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#74  Postby Fila » Feb 21, 2019 1:55 am

Hermit wrote:Having asked you to provide evidence for your claim that "people are not allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc" you ignore the question and change the topic instead. Nice one. There's a name for that sleight of hand.

That's exactly what YOU are doing.
I'm following up.., if they are allowed.., then why the ridicule on this site?
Please don't change the subject.., and please don't avoid my question.

People avoid my questions all the time. I asked you questions in the OP.., and no one has answered.
So.., EVERYONE is changing the goal posts, and perform sleight of hand. Yet.., I don't whinge about it.., and make that the threads new topic hoping to avoid answering the hard questions.

Hermit wrote:No, I cannot, mainly because I never said that "UFOs, ghosts, the idea of a god.., or anything similar.., cannot be looked into scientifically", nor did I say that "it should ONLY be restricted to sceptic websites.., or ghost / UFO forums".

Once again: Don't put words into my mouth. I am quite capable of doing that all on my own.

AGAIN? When did I do it before? I already explained what happened.., you had no response.., so don't lie about it.
If you disagreed with my explanation the first time you're referring to.., then say something about it.

Now.., back to this post. I'm paraphrasing what you posted. That's my understanding of it.
If that's not what you meant.., and I got it wrong.., the please elaborate on what you said.
Don't just say.., "Nah.., didn't say that" and leave it there.., in attempt to make this the new topic being discussed.

You know about sleight of hand, strawman and changing goal posts because that's what your life is about. I'm only just learning about these terms. In uni.., sure people make mistakes AAAALLLLLL the time. NO one mocks, or makes a big deal about it., or comes up with terms to describe the mistake.., as if that's smart or something.

"Hey man.., you made a mistake there. Try this. Or what about this?"
.....as opposed to...
"AHH OMG, LOLOL strawman and thats what you are for now and all time."

What's a term for someone who mocks people? Exaggerates problems to seem bigger than they are? Doesn't acknowledge when wrong? Resorts to name calling or jokes when cornered? Would rather discuss personal traits than facts? Would rather rant about any small mistake or semantics in the hopes of changing the subject, and avoiding hard questions?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#75  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2019 3:03 am

Fila wrote:
Hermit wrote:Having asked you to provide evidence for your claim that "people are not allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc" you ignore the question and change the topic instead. Nice one. There's a name for that sleight of hand.

That's exactly what YOU are doing.

No, I'm not. I said you changed the topic instead of providing evidence for your assertion that "people are not allowed to look into ghosts and UFOs etc". Was I wrong?
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#76  Postby Svartalf » Feb 21, 2019 3:09 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:There isn't an experiment you can run for ghosts. We don't have any unexplained data that could be ghosts or even a working mechanism for ghosts.


That's what I said. Fila is asking why we don't design an experiment, then. Well, there are no systematic data on the basis of which to design an experiment. Circular reasoning is circular. It looks as if Fila is recommending we just make some shit up.

It's not that we have unexplained data; we have anecdotes about purportedly unexplained events. Fila is overflowing with anecdotes about purportedly unexplained events, but the anecdotes aren't systematic, except to the extent that people copy each other's stories, and besides that, they are only anecdotes. We have some understanding of why people tell stories.

Of course we should make shit up... ghosts and UFO etc are made up shit to explain hallucinations or phenomena of which the rational explanation is unknown yet.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#77  Postby Ironclad » Feb 21, 2019 3:50 am

I've seen some crazy weird shit while hallucinating, including UFOs, but never a ghost. I have seen the face of Satan coming out of the moon though, does that count? Come to think of it, I did see Bob Marley at Glastonbury festival back in '83, he was dead so that was definitely a ghost.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#78  Postby laklak » Feb 21, 2019 3:59 am

I saw a plesiosaur swimming across the ceiling, and once a penguin talked to me. But no ghosts.
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#79  Postby Ironclad » Feb 21, 2019 4:00 am

Good times, good times. :smoke:
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Re: UK: Belief in ghosts is rising

#80  Postby laklak » Feb 21, 2019 4:02 am

Fuckin' A.
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