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CdesignProponentsist wrote:Psi = The science of finding random and non-duplicateable patterns in data and assigning a significance without providing a mechanism.
Vinncent wrote:"That's an enormous leap to the side. I am not referring to that at all, I am simply pointing out that people should not conflate phenomena (or alleged phenomena) with testing for or of that phenomena."
In what way is that an "enormous leap?" They have controlled for literally everything that is not conscious influence. If you want to claim that there is an alternative mechanism which would explain the results, unrelated to conscious intention, I would love to hear it... as such an explanation would simplify physics to a great extent, without having to require conscious phenomena to be taken into account.
Like the last posts... the ball is entirely in your court. You are making the claim that there is an alternative explanation that does not rely on remote conscious interference (telepathy) between individuals. All known physical mechanisms of information transfer have been accounted for. The only loose variable is the "sender" "telepathically" sending information to the target. By whatever mechanism this takes place, which causes an unexpected hit rate to occur... this is PSI. A type of information exchange which we are still trying to figure out.
You must provide an alternative explanation, which relies on known methods of information transfer, in accordance with the experimental parameters, if you are to claim that there is an alternative method of information transfer which is well understood by science.
If there is not, it deserves further exploration, and is the nature of scientific progress, the necessity to change our scientific models in light of new evidence about reality. Like it or not, this is science; the method of modeling and predicting reality based on experimental evidence, regardless of your own personal biases.
edit: simply=simplify.
jerome wrote:Three experimenters, one with each subject, and scoring and target selection is automated.
As I keep saying, it is consistently claimed that no ordinary sense is involved. It is supposed to be extra-sensory.
How do they know that it is not explicable within currently understood physics.
These "conclusions" aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's a matter of low sample size and multiple analyses.
Read this:
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/inf ... ed.0020124
As I said, actions speak louder than words. Claiming that the ganzfeld is somehow the key to some amazing scientific break-through is cheap. Not actually contributing anything to make that break-through is revealing.
How do they, or you, know that psi is connected to consciousness?
If it is by definition, then please explain how you know that the ganzfeld is connected to psi.
Ahh! But they didn't control for gremlins!
You say that gremlins aren't real? Now you're onto something.
If you show that conscious intent can have a tangible effect on the world without the mediation of nerves and muscles, then you will have an argument. Once you have established that, it becomes reasonable to think that with all other potential mechanisms controlled for, the intent mechanism is responsible for an effect.
I didn't just assume that. Please read more carefully.
As I've said in another thread on this topic, by that reasoning we do not need to use a double blind model when conducting a drug trial. You just make sure that, even though the investigators know which subjects are receiving active treatment and which are receiving placebos, they don't let this affect their measurement and interpretation of the results. And when you read the publication of the study, you just assume that the investigators were able to do so successfully.
The problem with the Ganzfeld, as I see it, is that it based on the assumption that it is possible to carry out the procedure so perfectly that, if some sort of psychic power does not exist, you would get a perfectly consistent 25% hit rate. But that assumption has not been, and cannot be, tested, unless there is some means of ensuring that these "psychic powers", or whatever is felt to cause the varation above 25%, could be identified and eliminated from the procedure. As it is, we don't know if the -1 to +7% range of variation from the expected 25% you describe is just a measurement of the frequency with which people fuck up an experimental procedure. In a double blind study, this does not matter because those errors will tend to even out over both groups. The Ganzfeld does not have this advantage.
The most obvious problem with the Ganzfeld experiment is that it cannot produce a negative or falsifying result.
Think about it from the viewpoint of someone who is convinced telepathy is real and that the Ganzfeld apparatus does indeed make the reciever more receptive.
In any anecedotes of (apparent) telepathy from everyday life (I have some myself), was the reciever in an isolated environment, wearing headphones feeding white noise, with halves of ping-pong balls strapped to their peepers?
As immediately pointed out by my nine-year-old son, if telepathy were a real phenomenon and you rendered a telepathic reciever yet more sensitive, they would surely be overwhelmed with information. The chances of recieving a clear message in such a din would be lessened, not increased.
The Ganzfeld experiments could conceivably demonstrate that telepathy might be a real phenomenon, but you can always think of a reason why their failure to do so fails to rule out the reasonable possibility of telepathy.
Vinncent wrote:As I keep saying, it is consistently claimed that no ordinary sense is involved. It is supposed to be extra-sensory.
How do they know that it is not explicable within currently understood physics.
Because no one has come up with a way to explain how the information transfer is able to take place within currently understood physics. Are you able to explain the results within currently understood physics?
I read that exact article a few days ago. It's a criticism against the entire scientific field in general... not simply PSI research. I agree with his points, but simply namedropping the article is saying that psi is fake because science in general is fake. If you think science in general is fake... we don't have anything more to talk about in discussing scientific research.
How do they, or you, know that psi is connected to consciousness?
If it is by definition, then please explain how you know that the ganzfeld is connected to psi.
These types of questions simply indicate that you know nothing about psi, or the ganzfeld experiments. I'm just going to copy and paste things, since you should really have some idea of the background behind the concepts you try to claim are "pseudoscience".
Ahh! But they didn't control for gremlins!
You say that gremlins aren't real? Now you're onto something.
If you show that conscious intent can have a tangible effect on the world without the mediation of nerves and muscles, then you will have an argument. Once you have established that, it becomes reasonable to think that with all other potential mechanisms controlled for, the intent mechanism is responsible for an effect.
Germlins aren't a well understood physical mechanism which would explain their results.
The ganzfeld experiments aren't a good indicator of conscious to material influence, as it revolves around conscious to conscious influence. I was trying to stick with the ganzfeld experiments for simplicity's sake, but this paper is more interesting:
Radin, D. I., Michel, L., Galdamez, K., Wendland, P. Rickenbach, R., Delorme, A. (2012). Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: Six experiments. Physics Essays, 25, 2, 157-171.
Vinncent wrote:
The most obvious problem with the Ganzfeld experiment is that it cannot produce a negative or falsifying result.
But it can, and sometimes does.
jerome wrote:Sets up the target pool and collates the results.
Hey, just found this unrelated to psi but interesting in some ways -- http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.co. ... ntire.html
Shrunk wrote:jerome wrote:Sets up the target pool and collates the results.
Here's the thing that I don't get: There are five people involved in this experiment, all interacting in complex ways, as human interactions tend to be. And the hypothesis being tested is that information can be transmitted directly from the mind of the sender to that of the receiver. The claim that this hypothesis has been confirmed is based on the observation that the information seems to have arrived in the mind of the receiver, even though there has been no physical interaction of any sort between him and the sender.
However, there have been physical interactions involving both of them and the three investigators. So the confirmation of the hypothesis is based on there being no possibility of the information having been conveyed thru any of these interactions. And, even if on paper there should not be any direct train of communication between all five individuals (I haven't been able to find a specific enough description of the procedure to determine whether that is the case), in practice I doubt it is possible to ensure that this protocol could have followed with such fidelity that it could not have produced a result of such a small magnitude as has been found in these studies.
IOW, those who say the Ganzfeld provides definitive evidence of psi are saying in effect: "There is no possible way that the information could have 'leaked' thru the investigators to the receiver, not even thru inadvertent unconscious cues. Therefore, the information must have been directly transmitted thru some as yet unknown process." However, it is equally plausible to say "There is no way information can be transmitted between two people who have absolutely no contact with each other. Therefore, the information must have been leaked by the investigators thru mechanisms that cannnot be identified at the time, but which nonetheless are the result of commonplace, direct, interpersonal interactions."Hey, just found this unrelated to psi but interesting in some ways -- http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.co. ... ntire.html
Interesting, for sure. And quite relevant to psi, I would say.
Vinncent wrote:
That would depend on their hypothesis.
A lot of the earlier experiments were plagued with bad controls... a falsifying result would be an experiment which took any flaws in the controls into account, reran the experiment, and found only chance expectation.
If you're talking about the later experiments (or any experiment, really)... a falsifying result would involve finding a flaw in their controls, and rerunning it again taking that flaw into account, and seeing whether or not they still obtained statistically significant results (or not). Without identifying any new flaw in the controls, for an experiment that has gotten a number of successful replications (and a number of unsuccessful replications), you are left with either:
A. One "side" of the researchers are lying. This is particularly complicated, when taking account successful replications from skeptics, and unsuccessful replications from those who primarily study anomalous phenomena.
B. There are still unidentified factors which influence how well a person is able to "send" and how well the other person is able to "receive", that no one is taking into account.
Vinncent wrote:Shrunk wrote:jerome wrote:Sets up the target pool and collates the results.
Here's the thing that I don't get: There are five people involved in this experiment, all interacting in complex ways, as human interactions tend to be. And the hypothesis being tested is that information can be transmitted directly from the mind of the sender to that of the receiver. The claim that this hypothesis has been confirmed is based on the observation that the information seems to have arrived in the mind of the receiver, even though there has been no physical interaction of any sort between him and the sender.
However, there have been physical interactions involving both of them and the three investigators. So the confirmation of the hypothesis is based on there being no possibility of the information having been conveyed thru any of these interactions. And, even if on paper there should not be any direct train of communication between all five individuals (I haven't been able to find a specific enough description of the procedure to determine whether that is the case), in practice I doubt it is possible to ensure that this protocol could have followed with such fidelity that it could not have produced a result of such a small magnitude as has been found in these studies.
IOW, those who say the Ganzfeld provides definitive evidence of psi are saying in effect: "There is no possible way that the information could have 'leaked' thru the investigators to the receiver, not even thru inadvertent unconscious cues. Therefore, the information must have been directly transmitted thru some as yet unknown process." However, it is equally plausible to say "There is no way information can be transmitted between two people who have absolutely no contact with each other. Therefore, the information must have been leaked by the investigators thru mechanisms that cannnot be identified at the time, but which nonetheless are the result of commonplace, direct, interpersonal interactions."Hey, just found this unrelated to psi but interesting in some ways -- http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.co. ... ntire.html
Interesting, for sure. And quite relevant to psi, I would say.
If I'm summarizing correctly, you're saying, "There's a problem with their blinds, because the researchers already know the answer to "which one of the four pictures/video clips is the correct answer, and are probably either overtly, or subconsciously through micro-expressions, pushing the "receiver" towards the correct answer."
VK-machine wrote:Vinncent wrote: If I'm summarizing correctly, you're saying, "There's a problem with their blinds, because the researchers already know the answer to "which one of the four pictures/video clips is the correct answer, and are probably either overtly, or subconsciously through micro-expressions, pushing the "receiver" towards the correct answer."
i don't think that's a correct summary.
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