A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#281  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 2:11 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote::lol:

Edit: Not enough lols.

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:

It's a disgrace to use lols alone as a response to any post. You should be ashamed of yourself, since you're one of those people I talked of with their head in the sand, yet I do understand your behaviour.

You're very lucky that hell doesn't exist, except on Earth.


Very, very rarely do I feel that my reaction to some issue is summed up purely by laughter. To your latest post (which OMFG you reproduced in a half decade old necro cross post :rofl: ) that was my reaction.

It's too fucking stupid to need words. I sat here, in my chair and laughed my arse off. I still am. :lol:

PS: The thing that is too funny for words is not so much your own beliefs/self-inflation/random put downs of John, it's the attribution of widely held beliefs to people you've talked to for fucking decades that shouldn't be possible to get wrong about people you've discussed these issues with once, for two minutes.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#282  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 2:44 am

For example, even attempting to take this seriously: :rofl:

jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it. This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess


No, what implies independence of the world is the independence of your later observations on your observational status of earlier ones. The world when you wake up has not ceased to progress in exactly the same fashion it does while you're awake.

This is known as "object permanence" and is learned by most human children at the age of about 1 or 2 years old, or maybe even earlier.

The fact is that if the world is independent of observation then there's a reason that if you close your eyes for 10 seconds you don't wake up in Addis Ababa. This is the basic bit of philosophy that has not eluded every other philosopher, child of a few months or a year, but seems to have eluded you here.
Last edited by Thommo on Mar 03, 2018 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#283  Postby jamest » Mar 03, 2018 2:44 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
It's a disgrace to use lols alone as a response to any post.

There's honestly no other way to respond to your posts. They're devoid of facts or fleshed out arguments, so there's nothing to argue. What you say is really exactly the same as what John says, you're both just making up whatever pleases you, only difference is he seems at least nominally aware he's just doing creative writing.

Your insincerity is what kills you, for me.

That you use claims about other people's sincerity to blindly dismiss what they say is incredibly insincere.

You're akin to a moth to a light. Not as intelligent as I imagined, obviously.

I've clearly argued the obvious/simple rational case that the observation/experience of X does not = X, for many years now. Yet every one of you muppets continues to sustain your atheist views upon the back of science. You've got no fucking excuses left for ignoring this FACT nor for your lols. I've tried my best, but I can hardly be arsed any more. I hadn't realised how extreme atheism could be. Nor how inane its backers would be.

That's probably because your claim doesn't actually defeat anything, least of all anything we've learned from science, and unlike your claims, science actually produces results.

Rationally, understanding that observed X does not = X, is as simple as knowing that 2 does not = 3. We can teach this SIMPLE (yet essential) shit to our kids whenever we choose, which should be immediately. Then we might have a generation of people who don't grow up thinking that science is a retort to theism. Then, we might have a generation of people who might consider theism in a new light, devoid of the religious shite we've had to endure.

All one has to do is read your posts to see this, you certainly don't act as someone that realizes they and everyone else are God.

Jesus got angry and upturned tables. Who can fucking blame him? Therefore, don't blame me for my anger. I could forgive you if you were stupid, but you're not.

I've done my best, for sure. The fact that I'm still trying [sometimes] after two decades of this shit is a miracle in itself. But I'm now wise to people like you and your fucking stupid politics, so I don't really give a shit any more.

Say something sarky as a response and get a handful of thumbs-ups to make yourself feel good.

This is hilarious coming from the guy who spends so much time patting himself on the back. Too bad you can't give yourself a thumb's up, eh?

I have no need to do such things in the presence of people who obviously don't give a fuck, since it should by now be obvious that I'm not concerned about being popular. The ONLY thing that interests me is changing attitudes. IF I can contribute one jot to changing the simpleton outlook of atheism, then I must continue to try, even though it makes me unhappy/miserable. I understand that 'my' lot doesn't fucking matter in comparison to that. Therefore, I'm still here. You'll have to fucking get rid of me via the back door, I'm afraid, cuz I promise to ALWAYS be a pain in the arse for you lot otherwise.

I must confess that I'm astonished to still be here, to be honest. Sincerely. Though as long as I am, I will do what I'm here to do.

Enough said. Good night. Though it is obvious that my reponse towards you is largely negative, rest assured that I do not hate 'you'. It's those ideas/attitudes of yours... gettit? I mean, I want to string them up, not you.

Good night, Sir.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#284  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 2:47 am

jamest wrote:You're akin to a moth to a light. Not as intelligent as I imagined, obviously.


Imagine moths often, do you?
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#285  Postby jamest » Mar 03, 2018 2:48 am

Thommo wrote:For example, even attempting to take this seriously: :rofl:

jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it. This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess


No, what implies independence of the world is the independence of your later observations on your observational status of earlier ones. The world when you wake up has not ceased to progress in exactly the same fashion it does while you're awake.

This is known as "object permanence" and is learned by most human children at the age of about 1 or 2 years old, or maybe even earlier.

The fact is that if the world is independent of observation then there's a reason that if you close your eyes for 10 seconds you don't wake up in Addis Ababa. This is the basic bit of philosophy that has not eluded every other philosopher, child of a few months or a year, but seems to have eluded you here.

I'm going to bed. What pleases me is that you had the decency to desist from being the dick that just lols as a respose in a philosophy thread. DON'T FUCKING DO IT AGAIN.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#286  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 2:51 am

jamest wrote:I have no need to do such things in the presence of people who obviously don't give a fuck, since it should by now be obvious that I'm not concerned about being popular.


Strangely, your posts with their frequent appeals to how many thumbs up someone does or doesn't get, reference to who you like and who likes you, who you wish well and would buy a pint for convey exactly the opposite impression.

I would imagine that someone who wanted to be popular would be self-aggrandizing, talk about their education and intelligence, plus make frequent references to measures of social media "popularity" like likes a lot. If this portrays anyone as being unconcerned with popularity, it's not really you.

Maybe Cito, actually? Or SAM?
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#287  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 2:51 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:For example, even attempting to take this seriously: :rofl:

jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it. This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess


No, what implies independence of the world is the independence of your later observations on your observational status of earlier ones. The world when you wake up has not ceased to progress in exactly the same fashion it does while you're awake.

This is known as "object permanence" and is learned by most human children at the age of about 1 or 2 years old, or maybe even earlier.

The fact is that if the world is independent of observation then there's a reason that if you close your eyes for 10 seconds you don't wake up in Addis Ababa. This is the basic bit of philosophy that has not eluded every other philosopher, child of a few months or a year, but seems to have eluded you here.

I'm going to bed. What pleases me is that you had the decency to desist from being the dick that just lols as a respose in a philosophy thread. DON'T FUCKING DO IT AGAIN.


:lol:
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#288  Postby jamest » Mar 03, 2018 3:09 am

Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:For example, even attempting to take this seriously: :rofl:

jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it. This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess


No, what implies independence of the world is the independence of your later observations on your observational status of earlier ones. The world when you wake up has not ceased to progress in exactly the same fashion it does while you're awake.

This is known as "object permanence" and is learned by most human children at the age of about 1 or 2 years old, or maybe even earlier.

The fact is that if the world is independent of observation then there's a reason that if you close your eyes for 10 seconds you don't wake up in Addis Ababa. This is the basic bit of philosophy that has not eluded every other philosopher, child of a few months or a year, but seems to have eluded you here.

I'm going to bed. What pleases me is that you had the decency to desist from being the dick that just lols as a respose in a philosophy thread. DON'T FUCKING DO IT AGAIN.


:lol:

That was an appeal, not an order. Nevertheless, my point has been made. Don't forget it. Ever.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#289  Postby Thommo » Mar 03, 2018 3:15 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:For example, even attempting to take this seriously: :rofl:



No, what implies independence of the world is the independence of your later observations on your observational status of earlier ones. The world when you wake up has not ceased to progress in exactly the same fashion it does while you're awake.

This is known as "object permanence" and is learned by most human children at the age of about 1 or 2 years old, or maybe even earlier.

The fact is that if the world is independent of observation then there's a reason that if you close your eyes for 10 seconds you don't wake up in Addis Ababa. This is the basic bit of philosophy that has not eluded every other philosopher, child of a few months or a year, but seems to have eluded you here.

I'm going to bed. What pleases me is that you had the decency to desist from being the dick that just lols as a respose in a philosophy thread. DON'T FUCKING DO IT AGAIN.


:lol:

That was an appeal, not an order. Nevertheless, my point has been made. Don't forget it. Ever.


:lol:

A badly worded appeal then, and apparently completely unaware of how many times you've ignored appeals to remain substantive, exercise reasoning when talking about reason and refrain from pointless braggadocio and personalisation when doing so - and that's just in this thread alone.

So yeah, when my actual response is laughter, I'll convey that here and I won't feel bad about it.

:lol:
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#290  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 03, 2018 3:53 am

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
There's honestly no other way to respond to your posts. They're devoid of facts or fleshed out arguments, so there's nothing to argue. What you say is really exactly the same as what John says, you're both just making up whatever pleases you, only difference is he seems at least nominally aware he's just doing creative writing.

Your insincerity is what kills you, for me.

That you use claims about other people's sincerity to blindly dismiss what they say is incredibly insincere.

You're akin to a moth to a light. Not as intelligent as I imagined, obviously.

It's honestly like you're trying to make my point for me.


I've clearly argued the obvious/simple rational case that the observation/experience of X does not = X, for many years now. Yet every one of you muppets continues to sustain your atheist views upon the back of science. You've got no fucking excuses left for ignoring this FACT nor for your lols. I've tried my best, but I can hardly be arsed any more. I hadn't realised how extreme atheism could be. Nor how inane its backers would be.

That's probably because your claim doesn't actually defeat anything, least of all anything we've learned from science, and unlike your claims, science actually produces results.

Rationally, understanding that observed X does not = X, is as simple as knowing that 2 does not = 3. We can teach this SIMPLE (yet essential) shit to our kids whenever we choose, which should be immediately.

As Thommo pointed out, this is beyond trivial. And me, I still suspect you haven't tried stepping in front of a moving bus to see if you're right.

Then we might have a generation of people who don't grow up thinking that science is a retort to theism.

Science demonstrably does retort empirical aspects of theism. You can never retort creative writing, though.

Then, we might have a generation of people who might consider theism in a new light, devoid of the religious shite we've had to endure.

You do understand that you saying this in the thread you started about The Messiah Christ is beyond rich?


All one has to do is read your posts to see this, you certainly don't act as someone that realizes they and everyone else are God.

Jesus got angry and upturned tables. Who can fucking blame him? Therefore, don't blame me for my anger. I could forgive you if you were stupid, but you're not.

This might be the lamest excuse I've ever read.


I've done my best, for sure. The fact that I'm still trying [sometimes] after two decades of this shit is a miracle in itself. But I'm now wise to people like you and your fucking stupid politics, so I don't really give a shit any more.

Say something sarky as a response and get a handful of thumbs-ups to make yourself feel good.

This is hilarious coming from the guy who spends so much time patting himself on the back. Too bad you can't give yourself a thumb's up, eh?

I have no need to do such things in the presence of people who obviously don't give a fuck, since it should by now be obvious that I'm not concerned about being popular. The ONLY thing that interests me is changing attitudes. IF I can contribute one jot to changing the simpleton outlook of atheism, then I must continue to try, even though it makes me unhappy/miserable. I understand that 'my' lot doesn't fucking matter in comparison to that. Therefore, I'm still here. You'll have to fucking get rid of me via the back door, I'm afraid, cuz I promise to ALWAYS be a pain in the arse for you lot otherwise.

If the only thing you're interested in is changing attitudes, then you must know on some level that you have failed. Making yourself out to be a martyr for it doesn't really help.

I must confess that I'm astonished to still be here, to be honest. Sincerely. Though as long as I am, I will do what I'm here to do.

Enough said. Good night. Though it is obvious that my reponse towards you is largely negative, rest assured that I do not hate 'you'. It's those ideas/attitudes of yours... gettit? I mean, I want to string them up, not you.

So's you can save yourself this speech every time we talk, it isn't possible for me to care any less what you think of me.

Good night, Sir.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#291  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 03, 2018 5:14 am

jamest wrote:You're very lucky that hell doesn't exist, except on Earth.


All you're saying here is that observed hell-on-Earth is not hell itself. I think we already knew that, Brother. For you to reason from there to the conclusion that hell doesn't exist at all is on a par with your dictum that observed A is not A itself. However, you have omitted the reasoning. That's just an observed dictum. You haven't really dictum, yet. As it is, as it was, as it shall be, in your sad case. Just an observation, on my part, of the Whole Hole. In that respect, this hurts me as much as it hurts you, which is to say, not very fucking much.

I mean, there's just One All, so it makes no sense to say that what I do to you, I do to myself. It's just Everything doing everything to Itself. Who's the dick in that dictum? There's just one big Dick, dicking Itself.

jamest wrote:Your insincerity is what kills you, for me.


Good thing that's only observed insincerity. Or do you just know in your heart of hearts that it is real, fucking insincerity? Again, you have omitted the reasoning. Is this just another of those things you just know?

jamest wrote:I've clearly argued the obvious/simple rational case that the observation/experience of X does not = X, for many years now.


You've certainly asserted it enough times. You omitted the reasoning, though. Perhaps it's obvious, like that observed bus you won't step in front of. Just do it, jamest. Then you will have dictum, once and for all. Do it for the sake of humanity, for the sake of all sentient beings everywhere in the All. For the sake of The One, the Indivisible, with liberty and justice for All.

jamest wrote:Say something sarky as a response and get a handful of thumbs-ups to make yourself feel good. Same ol' same ol'. But you aint kidding me Sir. I know you down to the t. The bits that matter here, anyway.


I think you're letting yourself become overly concerned with the observed thumbs-up, which is not in itself a thumbs-up.

jamest wrote:Jesus got angry and upturned tables. Who can fucking blame him?


Hardly a cause for concern, as you rightly recognize. Those were only observed tables, observed to be upturned, somewhat akin to the upturning of a thumb. Howsoever, be careful not to sit there. It might manifest in reality as a frozen badger.

jamest wrote:The ONLY thing that interests me is changing attitudes.


Attitudes which, of course, cannot be observed. And those are the REAL THING. I think I'm beginning to get the hang of your programme, at least as I've observed it. That's the real me, doing the observing. Part of the Indivisible Hole. Knot whole.

jamest wrote:Though as long as I am, I will do what I'm here to do.


And we will continue to be here, observing you apparently doing what you are observed to be doing. Apparently. Of course, that's not what you're really doing, and that's why your observed efforts are so ineffectual, and garner so many observed lols. By George, I think I've got it!

Except for reasoning from "observed A is not A itself" to the conclusion that everything is One. If we could get there, world peace would be eternal. I think the way it works is that IF everything is One, then World Peace is automatic, depending on the recognition thereof. But that isn't how your vaunted reasoning has taken it.

jamest wrote:What pleases me is that you had the decency to desist from being the dick that just lols as a respose in a philosophy thread.


What about me, jamest? Not one fucking LOL in this whole post. At least, no observed LOLs. The One Indivisible Hole is laughing, though, on the inside. How big is the inside of a-hole? Is it as big as the outside of a-hole? This, then, is the hole that fills itself. With thumbs. Once a-hole, always a-hole.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#292  Postby surreptitious57 » Mar 03, 2018 9:07 am


The above post was written by observed Cito not the real Cito

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#293  Postby John Platko » Mar 03, 2018 1:31 pm

jamest wrote:With all due respect John, you shouldn't involve yourself in philosophical threads about God. I mean, your own perspective is grounded entirely in beliefs about a bloke named Jesus, enough said.


With all due respect Jamest, you shouldn't object to someone whose beliefs about God are grounded primarily by a bloke named Jesus in a thread titled: A philosophy of how to find The Messiah, The Christ. It's a bit like starting a thread: a philosophy on how to find the blues and objecting to a Clapton fan involving themselves.


I've got enough on my plate here explaining why observation/experience of X does not = X itself, which utterly undermines the metaphysical value of science itself in terms of supporting materialism/physicalism (Utterly!!!), so the last thing I need is Xians entering the fray. I mean, you're intelligent enough to know that your views are devoid of philosophical value due to their base beliefs. Unfortunately, the numpty atheists here have still not grasped that this also applies to them.


Exactly what base beliefs do you think void the philosophical value of my contribution to this thread?


Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it. This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess, to the point of now thinking that they are extremists themselves, unto their own cause. Terrorists of a certain ilk, thankfully not violent (yet).


I'm having a bit of trouble following your reasoning. Please explain what the world existing independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it or not has to do with a philosophy on how to find the Messiah, The Christ.

It may very well be that the world does exist independently of "that' which observes it but the Messiah, The Christ does not. That is, one being real stuff, i.e. energy, matter, or fluctuations quantum fields that don't need observers, the other being fluctuations in an observers brain.



Well, fuck that. My diminished activity over the last few years is due entirely to realising that most people here are impervious to reason if it offends their beliefs/attitudes, as though changing said beliefs was not even an option. It's taken me a long time to realise just how dumb scientists are wrt them deliberately using their knowledge to undermine theism [in general], since any fucking half-wit making half a fucking effort can KNOW that scientific evidence does not support atheism, as its data is not metaphysical. Yet, it's all heads in the sands, until death, for reasons I cannot comprehend other than (perhaps) to absolve them of guilt for their materialistic attitudes.


:scratch: I've encountered the sort of thing you just expressed before, and even though I'm not an atheist, I find myself wondering why anyone would express such a sentiment. What causes you to have such faith in any metaphysical system of thought?


The people who die here, with their heads in the sand, will have no excuses. They were informed.


:eh: Do you really believe they will need an excuse? Why will they need an excuse? And who was the informant who you think took away their excuses?


They are the new Pharisees. Jesus badgered the Pharisees of his time, and I know who he was, so I thereofore must persist until they string me up. That is my cross.


Ahhh yes, you keep telling us you know who he was but you don't spell out exactly who you think he was. Please do some spelling. Make your case. I myself have put a bit of effort in trying to sus out who he was, alas, I must accept such things can only be imagined, they cannot be known. And it's important to know the difference.

I'll just add, you're quite fortunate to have the benefit of the many smart people here to help you untangle tangled ideas.
I like to imagine ...
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#294  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 03, 2018 6:11 pm


!
MODNOTE
jamest, this post that you made contains a personal attack/insult:

[Reveal] Spoiler: your reported post, relevant text in bold red font
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
There's honestly no other way to respond to your posts. They're devoid of facts or fleshed out arguments, so there's nothing to argue. What you say is really exactly the same as what John says, you're both just making up whatever pleases you, only difference is he seems at least nominally aware he's just doing creative writing.

Your insincerity is what kills you, for me.

That you use claims about other people's sincerity to blindly dismiss what they say is incredibly insincere.

You're akin to a moth to a light. Not as intelligent as I imagined, obviously.
I've clearly argued the obvious/simple rational case that the observation/experience of X does not = X, for many years now. Yet every one of you muppets continues to sustain your atheist views upon the back of science. You've got no fucking excuses left for ignoring this FACT nor for your lols. I've tried my best, but I can hardly be arsed any more. I hadn't realised how extreme atheism could be. Nor how inane its backers would be.

That's probably because your claim doesn't actually defeat anything, least of all anything we've learned from science, and unlike your claims, science actually produces results.

Rationally, understanding that observed X does not = X, is as simple as knowing that 2 does not = 3. We can teach this SIMPLE (yet essential) shit to our kids whenever we choose, which should be immediately. Then we might have a generation of people who don't grow up thinking that science is a retort to theism. Then, we might have a generation of people who might consider theism in a new light, devoid of the religious shite we've had to endure.
All one has to do is read your posts to see this, you certainly don't act as someone that realizes they and everyone else are God.

Jesus got angry and upturned tables. Who can fucking blame him? Therefore, don't blame me for my anger. I could forgive you if you were stupid, but you're not.
I've done my best, for sure. The fact that I'm still trying [sometimes] after two decades of this shit is a miracle in itself. But I'm now wise to people like you and your fucking stupid politics, so I don't really give a shit any more.

Say something sarky as a response and get a handful of thumbs-ups to make yourself feel good.

This is hilarious coming from the guy who spends so much time patting himself on the back. Too bad you can't give yourself a thumb's up, eh?

I have no need to do such things in the presence of people who obviously don't give a fuck, since it should by now be obvious that I'm not concerned about being popular. The ONLY thing that interests me is changing attitudes. IF I can contribute one jot to changing the simpleton outlook of atheism, then I must continue to try, even though it makes me unhappy/miserable. I understand that 'my' lot doesn't fucking matter in comparison to that. Therefore, I'm still here. You'll have to fucking get rid of me via the back door, I'm afraid, cuz I promise to ALWAYS be a pain in the arse for you lot otherwise.

I must confess that I'm astonished to still be here, to be honest. Sincerely. Though as long as I am, I will do what I'm here to do.

Enough said. Good night. Though it is obvious that my reponse towards you is largely negative, rest assured that I do not hate 'you'. It's those ideas/attitudes of yours... gettit? I mean, I want to string them up, not you.

Good night, Sir.

Making personal attacks against other forum members is not allowed, as is spelled out in our Forum User's Agreement, paragraph 1.2.c, to which you agreed when you joined our forum.

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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#295  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 03, 2018 9:49 pm

jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it.

Yeah, actually it does. It's exactly what it implies, because it's what we'd expect to see if the world existed independently of that which observes it.

This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess

Why? You've never actually made the case for your "BASIC bit of philosophy". Mostly just chest thumping and cheesy invective. If you want to be taken seriously (and this is necessary if you want to accomplish what you say is your goal) then maybe you should start with what you'd expect to see if the world did exist independently of that which observes it. Or anything really, instead of just assuming that you're right.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#296  Postby jamest » Mar 09, 2018 10:19 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it.

Yeah, actually it does. It's exactly what it implies, because it's what we'd expect to see if the world existed independently of that which observes it.

Silly Billy; the fact that our experiences are ordered/predictable does not imply that the world they report exists independently of those experiences.



This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess

Why? You've never actually made the case for your "BASIC bit of philosophy". Mostly just chest thumping and cheesy invective. If you want to be taken seriously (and this is necessary if you want to accomplish what you say is your goal) then maybe you should start with what you'd expect to see if the world did exist independently of that which observes it. Or anything really, instead of just assuming that you're right.

If I'm right about 'God' then I'd expect to see no more nor less than I'm already 'seeing'.

What I can say without a shadow of a doubt is that the self transcends consciousness (of experience) since experiences are self-given. I mean, do you really think for instance that the universe wants to warn you when something is hot or cold? No, the universe doesn't (wouldn't) give a shit. The 'thing' that is essentially you though, does (would), so imposes those particular experiences upon itself as an aid to prolonging the experience. I mean, if experience is to be 'ordered' then there must be certain consequences to (for instance) poking your experienced hand into an experienced fire, or immersing your experienced naked body into the experience of the Arctic Ocean.

I could go into much more depth but I'm not really inclined to do so at the moment. Enjoy your weekend.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#297  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 09, 2018 10:37 pm

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it.

Yeah, actually it does. It's exactly what it implies, because it's what we'd expect to see if the world existed independently of that which observes it.

Silly Billy; the fact that our experiences are ordered/predictable does not imply that the world they report exists independently of those experiences.

Silly Billy, you've got to respond to the content of what a person's said in your response, not just say "No it isn't!" That's not useful. So let's try again: if the world existed independently of my observation of it, I would expect to see consistency. This seems very straightforward and obvious, so I'd be happy if you'd address it this time so I don't have to explain why it's so obvious, which will be incredibly boring for everyone reading, since they all grasped it at some point in toddlerhood.



This BASIC bit of philosophy has eluded these 'sharp brains' for over a decade now (wrt my participation). I'm dumbfounded, I must confess

Why? You've never actually made the case for your "BASIC bit of philosophy". Mostly just chest thumping and cheesy invective. If you want to be taken seriously (and this is necessary if you want to accomplish what you say is your goal) then maybe you should start with what you'd expect to see if the world did exist independently of that which observes it. Or anything really, instead of just assuming that you're right.

If I'm right about 'God' then I'd expect to see no more nor less than I'm already 'seeing'.

Then how can you come to the conclusion that you're right, if the world looks exactly the same whether your 'God' exists or not?

What I can say without a shadow of a doubt is that the self transcends consciousness (of experience) since experiences are self-given.

If experiences are self-given, you would expect them to be different from one self to the other. They are, after all, from the self, and not from some externally consistent world.

I mean, do you really think for instance that the universe wants to warn you when something is hot or cold? No, the universe doesn't (wouldn't) give a shit. The 'thing' that is essentially you though, does (would), so imposes those particular experiences upon itself as an aid to prolonging the experience. I mean, if experience is to be 'ordered' then there must be certain consequences to (for instance) poking your experienced hand into an experienced fire, or immersing your experienced naked body into the experience of the Arctic Ocean.

Being able to detect hot and cold is an incredibly obvious evolutionary advantage. Being either too hot or too cold will damage or kill you after all. I certainly hope you've got something better than that.

I could go into much more depth but I'm not really inclined to do so at the moment. Enjoy your weekend.

So you're not inclined to actually make your case at all, because you definitely haven't here. Alright I guess :dunno:
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#298  Postby jamest » Mar 29, 2018 11:17 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:Science works, I'll grant you that, because the observational/experienced world is ordered. Though the fact that the observed/experienced world is ordered and science works does NOT imply that the world exists independently of 'that' which observes/experiences it.

Yeah, actually it does. It's exactly what it implies, because it's what we'd expect to see if the world existed independently of that which observes it.

Silly Billy; the fact that our experiences are ordered/predictable does not imply that the world they report exists independently of those experiences.

Silly Billy, you've got to respond to the content of what a person's said in your response, not just say "No it isn't!" That's not useful. So let's try again: if the world existed independently of my observation of it, I would expect to see consistency. This seems very straightforward and obvious, so I'd be happy if you'd address it this time so I don't have to explain why it's so obvious, which will be incredibly boring for everyone reading, since they all grasped it at some point in toddlerhood.

Now I know how MLK must have felt.

Look, I'm sorry that you were unable to discern anything meaningful from my post, but that's your problem not mine. I mean, I have no magic wand to make you become more intelligent or sincere, if that's what you're hinting at.

The SIMPLE FACT IS that experiences do NOT necessitate that they mirror a reality. Your dreams are evidence of this, if nothing else, yet expect no less from them than you do your recurring nightmare of the experienced 'SAM'.

This is about REASON, not observation. If you want to pursue an intelligent metaphysical conversation with me, then you'll need to stop talking with your fucking eyeballs.

This applies to the fuckin' lot of you. Twenty years I've been doing this, and yet not one of you donkeys has awoken to this FACT.

I do what I do here, in donkey land, because it must be done. A chore, for the sake of the future.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#300  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 29, 2018 11:34 pm

jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Yeah, actually it does. It's exactly what it implies, because it's what we'd expect to see if the world existed independently of that which observes it.

Silly Billy; the fact that our experiences are ordered/predictable does not imply that the world they report exists independently of those experiences.

Silly Billy, you've got to respond to the content of what a person's said in your response, not just say "No it isn't!" That's not useful. So let's try again: if the world existed independently of my observation of it, I would expect to see consistency. This seems very straightforward and obvious, so I'd be happy if you'd address it this time so I don't have to explain why it's so obvious, which will be incredibly boring for everyone reading, since they all grasped it at some point in toddlerhood.

Now I know how MLK must have felt.

And now you're comparing yourself to MLK. How's that ego reduction going?

Look, I'm sorry that you were unable to discern anything meaningful from my post, but that's your problem not mine.

It's definitely your problem, as I clearly explained. You claiming that you don't need to explain your position is beyond idiotic. So, once again: consistency is what you'd expect to observe if the world existed independently of your observation, and that's exactly what we see. So instead of yet again whining about intelligence and sincerity, display some yourself for once and explain how seeing exactly what we'd expect to see doesn't mean what it obviously means.

The SIMPLE FACT IS that experiences do NOT necessitate that they mirror a reality. Your dreams are evidence of this, if nothing else, yet expect no more from them than you do your recurring nightmare of the experienced 'SAM'.

What you see when you dream is not reflected in consistent observable reality. It is something that is experienced only by yourself, and not anyone else. This is in total contrast to the consistent observations of the world around us found by everyone with a functioning brain and senses. I know this might be difficult for you to grasp, but you've helped to make my point with your example. I wonder if you'll ever figure out why.

This is about REASON, not observation.

Without observation, reason is just mental masturbation. In combination, observation and reason bury your "philosophy".

If you want to pursue an intelligent metaphysical conversation with me, then you'll need to stop talking with your fucking eyeballs.

As usual, your confidence is far in excess of your prowess. How about you open your eyeballs and join the rest of us in the real world? Then something you say might reflect something that could actually be useful to anybody.

This applies to the fuckin' lot of you. Twenty years I've been doing this, and yet not one of you donkeys has awoken to this FACT.

Again, you shouldn't brag about utterly failing for 20 years.

I do what I do here, in donkey land, because it must be done. A chore, for the sake of the future.

Well you suck at it, so maybe do something else instead? I mean, I enjoy the occasional easy job of punting your "philosophy" out of the park, but after 20 years you must be incredibly bored of it getting destroyed by such basic points so often.
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