A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#41  Postby SafeAsMilk » Feb 25, 2018 12:33 am

John Platko wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
John Platko wrote:It's not easy to go against the grain of any society. But I don't know if I'd call that a "negative characteristics of Christs behaviour".


On a spatial scale of 200 Mpc, the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. On that scale, the story is meaningless; modern cosmology tells you there is not a privileged location and perspective, such as yours or what you'd call anything. Given that, finding Christ is kind of a dipshit project.


From your 200 Mpc perspective, aren't all projects dipshit projects?

Most projects have enough self awareness to not claim they've got a 200 Mpc perspective. This lack of awareness is what makes it a dipshit project.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#42  Postby laklak » Feb 25, 2018 1:14 am

Dunno about this Christ Jesus fella, he's constantly getting lost. People are always asking if I've found him. I don't even know the twat, how the fuck should I know where he is?
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#43  Postby SafeAsMilk » Feb 25, 2018 1:24 am

At least you can just imagine what he'd be like and that'd be an accomplishment for some folks.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#44  Postby surreptitious57 » Feb 25, 2018 2:08 am

John Platko wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
If one ignores the negative characteristics of Christs behaviour in the Gospels and instead focused only on
the positive ones I would expect to see both humility and wisdom. But conveniently ignoring the negatives
would not be truly representative of him however so I would have to include them as well

What are all the negative characteristics of the Christ behaviour in the Gospels

Anger / disrespect / contempt / apathy / delusion are the obvious ones
They are all human traits that one would not expect to see in a Messiah
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#45  Postby jamest » Feb 25, 2018 2:39 am

Well, here's my thoughts on the matter...

IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.

Of course, Christ would also be aware that the rest of us plebs were ignorant to this fact, thus would be understanding towards our plight and forgiving towards our thoughts and deeds. Which is not to say that 'it' would accept the status quo. Naturally, 'it' would want to spread the good news and alleviate the experience of suffering.

If such were true, then 'miracles' may indeed occur as an aid to such a process. However, let's imagine that for whatever reason The Christ didn't want to use them. What then could it do? What virtues could it express to impact upon the ignorant masses sufficient to impart the good news?

I'm trying to give this some serious thought, because of course my philosophy makes possible The Christ in all, as indeed does the message of some other theists. And I've come to one conclusion thus far:

I'm going to have to stop using frozen badgers to get my point across!

Well, I'll give it a try. But don't fucking vex me. :tongue:

I'm going to give this more thought.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#46  Postby felltoearth » Feb 25, 2018 4:34 am

laklak wrote:Dunno about this Christ Jesus fella, he's constantly getting lost. People are always asking if I've found him. I don't even know the twat, how the fuck should I know where he is?


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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#47  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 25, 2018 5:31 am

jamest wrote:Which is not to say that 'it' would accept the status quo. Naturally, 'it' would want to spread the good news and alleviate the experience of suffering.


In the 200 Mpc sphere centered on your navel, the average density of ordinary matter is some 20+ orders of magnitude smaller than is the average density of matter in a 3 m sphere centered on your navel. Matter at such tiny densities does not support any form of suffering. That's gotta be worth some thought, because the average density at length scales larger than 200 Mpc is bound to decrease with the passage of time. For more such pearls of wisdom, consult the introductory chapters of Barbara Ryden's textbook on cosmology, now over ten years old. You've been at this for twenty years, and so you should have run across Ryden's book in that time. Some things don't change significantly during one human lifetime, though, and appear eternal to some of us.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#48  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 25, 2018 5:38 am

jamest wrote:IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


jamest, are you in fact Christ? Be honest now.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#49  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 25, 2018 5:39 am

LucidFlight wrote:
jamest wrote:IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


jamest, are you in fact Christ? Be honest now.


Wrong, LF. The proper response is, "I know you are, but what am I?"
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#50  Postby Thommo » Feb 25, 2018 9:20 am

jamest wrote:IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


The key thing that strikes me there is that you start by saying it's possible to verify it, then go on to provide no method of verification. Indeed, in the past you've said that Observed X is not Experienced X.

So whilst we could observe someone who said they knew they were Christ (and I've met a few by the way, often wearing sandwich boards with various apocalyptic messages) we cannot in fact experience or verify this for ourselves.

The secondary thing that strikes me is how this has nothing in common with characteristics associated with the messiah, so one wonders why bother with the label.

Still, although I'm critical of the content, I do applaud that you came back and answered Fallible and SAM's request with a constructive post, thanks for that.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#51  Postby GrahamH » Feb 25, 2018 10:11 am

LucidFlight wrote:
jamest wrote:IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


jamest, are you in fact Christ? Be honest now.


The signs are there! He's either the Messiah or he's a very naughty boy.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#52  Postby GrahamH » Feb 25, 2018 10:22 am

jamest wrote:Well, here's my thoughts on the matter...

IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


You seem confused.
If a Christ must know itself as such then anyone who has not always known this with utter certainty is categorically not a Christ.

Isn't the meaning of "lucid dream" that you can take control of events, such as being able to, say, fly or walk on water? Isn't the test of being the lucid dreamer precisely that you can do miracles in what seems to all otherwise to be the waking world?

And your basic premise about being fooled is deeply, deeply flawed. If you can be fooled into believing you are human when you are in fact God then surely you can be humans yet fooled into believing you are God. The latter seems infinitely more credible since it doesn't shatter on the contradiction of omniscient ignorance.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#53  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 25, 2018 10:30 am

What if God sent his son down as Christ, but wanted his son to experience being human without knowing he was God, as some sort of test?
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#54  Postby GrahamH » Feb 25, 2018 10:33 am

Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this without the need for 'miracles'. Why? Because (from my perspective anyway) a Christ would be an individual who knew that 'it' was God, thus was not fooled (as we all seemingly are) into believing 'it' was human. The Christ would know without a doubt that being human is merely a dream - indeed, a lucid dream.


The key thing that strikes me there is that you start by saying it's possible to verify it, then go on to provide no method of verification.


I don't think jamest is making an argument that characters in his lucid dream could verify that he is Christ He is, as ever, talking to himself about how he must be right in his belief that he is divine. He is asking whether God can know it is God without having any experience of being able to do the sort of things God is supposed to be able to do.

WLC' / Plantinga's "Intrinsic defeater defeaters"

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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#55  Postby Thommo » Feb 25, 2018 10:41 am

GrahamH wrote:And your basic premise about being fooled is deeply, deeply flawed. If you can be fooled into believing you are human when you are in fact God then surely you can be humans yet fooled into believing you are God. The latter seems infinitely more credible since it doesn't shatter on the contradiction of omniscient ignorance.


I think that's a very valid point. If we are willing to grant that god can be fooled, then we surely must grant that humans can too. There's no obvious way to breach that equivalence and James didn't attempt to.

GrahamH wrote:I don't think jamest is making an argument that characters in his lucid dream could verify that he is Christ He is, as ever, talking to himself about how he must be right in his belief that he is divine. He is asking whether God can know it is God without having any experience of being able to do the sort of things God is supposed to be able to do.


You might well be right, in which case he should not have asked us "about the signs of a Christ in a persona" or "what you would expect to see in the persona of a Christ" and he should not have answered his own query with "IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this".

All of these lie on the other side of his storied Observed X/Experienced X divide. They are all externalised. If he wants to say that he could know subjectively he's Christ but cannot provide any reason for anyone else to think so, then he should say that instead.

As it stands he's borrowing a premise from a contradictory position.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#56  Postby GrahamH » Feb 25, 2018 10:49 am

Thommo wrote:
...he should not have asked us "about the signs of a Christ in a persona" or "what you would expect to see in the persona of a Christ" and he should not have answered his own query with "IF there were a Christ amongst us, it should imo be possible to verify this".


He is engaging in self-affirmation. He wants rationalisations for his self belief. He couches it as a question to 'us' (that his delusion construes as imaginary, dream characters of his own devising) but a clearer context is to see it as jamest asking the voices outside his head to tell him why he is right.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#57  Postby Thommo » Feb 25, 2018 10:53 am

The problem with that is that from the point of view of the delusion, he's not right, so it makes no sense within his philosophy to ask "outside". And that's starting from a presuppositionalist viewpoint, if one admits the possibility of error as you suggested he should and starts from a neutral standpoint, then things only get worse.

All of this is also perhaps being uncharitable to James and assuming that he has deluded himself into believing he's the second coming of Christ, and I'm really not sure he has done anything quite so silly here.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#58  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 25, 2018 10:58 am

Credit to jamest for having us think critically about his thoughts. The hope is that we can all learn from this exchange.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#59  Postby GrahamH » Feb 25, 2018 11:17 am

Thommo wrote:The problem with that is that from the point of view of the delusion, he's not right, so it makes no sense within his philosophy to ask "outside". And that's starting from a presuppositionalist viewpoint, if one admits the possibility of error as you suggested he should and starts from a neutral standpoint, then things only get worse.

All of this is also perhaps being uncharitable to James and assuming that he has deluded himself into believing he's the second coming of Christ, and I'm really not sure he has done anything quite so silly here.


But in his philosophy there is no "outside" There is only "The One". Think of it as him opening up to his own "subconscious" He doesn't entirely deny that "other people" have valuable things to say, but he thinks 'they' are part of him.

While he may believe there is no possibility of error there is the possibility of an experience of error, and experience of ignorance, and experience of other.

Also, delusional beliefs don't have to make sense, even when couched in claims of majestic philophical profundity.
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Re: A philosophy on how to find The Messiah, The Christ

#60  Postby Thommo » Feb 25, 2018 11:21 am

GrahamH wrote:But in his philosophy there is no "outside" There is only "The One". Think of it as him opening up to his own "subconscious" He doesn't entirely deny that "other people" have valuable things to say, but he thinks 'they' are part of him.


Whatever they are, and I don't feel like quibbling over the label, "the voices outside his head" aren't telling him why he is right, or that he is right.
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