Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron
The_Metatron wrote:You should never procreate, then. That will have the benefit of your ideas dying with you.
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SafeAsMilk wrote:A friend of mine has a similar view, they say that to give birth to a child is to condemn them to death.
Fine, I say, do us all a favor and don't have any children. A parent with such a view of life would surely end up fulfilling their own prophecy.
Andrew4Handel wrote:The_Metatron wrote:You should never procreate, then. That will have the benefit of your ideas dying with you.
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That is not true dear.
Ideas survive the death of a person.
Have you heard of Books?
Have you heard of the long dead Aristotle?
You sound like a typical breeder to me..
Based on your paradigm and mine combined atheism wont survive your death because it is not a belief and hence has no memes to pass on lol..
Andrew4Handel wrote:Like David Benatar I believe that having children leads to nontrivial harm and therefore noone should procreate.
Life is also potentiallly (although not provably) pointless dominated by work and ends in decay. We are sentient and hence can dwell on the implication of our impending death.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument that having children doesn't propogate harm and is moral.
Maybe you have one?
Andrew4Handel wrote:SafeAsMilk wrote:A friend of mine has a similar view, they say that to give birth to a child is to condemn them to death.
Fine, I say, do us all a favor and don't have any children. A parent with such a view of life would surely end up fulfilling their own prophecy.
When the antinatalist has died the suffering will continue unabated because people refuse to take responsibility for or grasp that they are propogating suffering.
I think some atheist oppose antinatalism because they want to distance themselves from the nihilistic implications of their own position. If someone has a child and believes in a positive after life scenario then the suffering we experience on earth may not bee final or the end. That is a potential plus for the theist.
Even though I am not opposed to the notion of afterlife and the temporary nature of suffering I think any but the mildest suffering is totally unacceptable. And life throws suffering on by the bucket load.
Spinozasgalt wrote:
You believe that living leads to nontrivial harm, don't you? Shouldn't you be advocating painless suicides then? Let's get clearer on that.
Andrew4Handel wrote:
Before someone has a child due to the wonder of the human mind we can contemplate on the outcome of our actions.
However although everyone does suffer non trivial harm in life most notably through facing death and bereavement alot of people suffer unmitigated horrendous harm.
LucidFlight wrote:
LOL. Where does it say memes necessarily require a belief set to contain and propagate them? Simply the idea itself of non-belief is sufficient to constitute a meme.
Welcome back, by the way.
Andrew4Handel wrote:Spinozasgalt wrote:
You believe that living leads to nontrivial harm, don't you? Shouldn't you be advocating painless suicides then? Let's get clearer on that.
Before someone has a child due to the wonder of the human mind we can contemplate on the outcome of our actions.
This decision not to have children is being made before the existence of a new sentience life come to exist suicide is taking place after the existence of sentience and is down to the individual. Many people do chose it around 1 million people world wide every year.
If you created a robot would you create a robot that had inbuilt faults, the capacity to suffer immensely and a limited shelf life?
However although everyone does suffer non trivial harm in life most notably through facing death and bereavement alot of people suffer unmitigated horrendous harm.
If there was a scenario where there was no going to be no child poverty war slavery and genocide then the questions could be approached solely from the perspective of western privellege and expectations.
Andrew4Handel wrote:LucidFlight wrote:
LOL. Where does it say memes necessarily require a belief set to contain and propagate them? Simply the idea itself of non-belief is sufficient to constitute a meme.
Welcome back, by the way.
I was responding to the posters claim that my ideas would die out with me.
However say tomorrow we all stopped believing in gods as a species then down the line assuming the belief in god didn't reassert itself the notion of atheism would be irrelevant due to the lack of a proposed alternative. So for instance noone likely believes that the there is a planet made solely of condoms therefore noone has an explicit nonbelief in this. Atheism is an explicit nonbelief that is based on the presence of theism.
Antinatalism is propped up by the continuation of procreation.
So in a wry way you could say athiesm is parasitic on theism which would be a charming idea for another thread.
I say this because I think metatrons hostility towards me derives from my stringent criticism of atheism.
I was brought up to believe billions of non believers would spend eternity in hell which I rejected as a macabre and sick belief which makes people holding this ideology unfit parents and made me question the rationale of people having children whilst holding such nihilistic beliefs..
On the otherhand when I left religion I found that the alternative was meaningless pointlessness and was unable to replace religion with anything meaingfull. So I don't see atheism as a solution to cankerous religious ideologies but it carries its own innate unpleasent nihilism making life pointless which is a god reason not to propogate it.
Phillip Larkin wrote:
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
Andrew4Handel wrote:I have yet to hear a convincing argument that having children doesn't propogate harm and is moral.
Maybe you have one?
Andrew4Handel wrote:Like David Benatar I believe that having children leads to nontrivial harm and therefore noone should procreate.
Life is also potentiallly (although not provably) pointless dominated by work and ends in decay. We are sentient and hence can dwell on the implication of our impending death.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument that having children doesn't propogate harm and is moral.
Maybe you have one?
Andrew4Handel wrote:I was responding to the posters claim that my ideas would die out with me.LucidFlight wrote:
:
However say tomorrow we all stopped believing in gods as a species then down the line assuming the belief in god didn't reassert itself the notion of atheism would be irrelevant due to the lack of a proposed alternative. So for instance noone likely believes that the there is a planet made solely of condoms therefore noone has an explicit nonbelief in this. Atheism is an explicit nonbelief that is based on the presence of theism. Antinatalism is propped up by the continuation of procreation.
So in a wry way you could say athiesm is parasitic on theism which would be a charming idea for another thread.
I say this because I think metatrons hostility towards me derives from my stringent criticism of atheism.
I was brought up to believe billions of non believers would spend eternity in hell which I rejected as a macabre and sick belief which makes people holding this ideology unfit parents and made me question the rationale of people having children whilst holding such nihilistic beliefs..
On the otherhand when I left religion I found that the alternative was meaningless pointlessness and was unable to replace religion with anything meaingfull. So I don't see atheism as a solution to cankerous religious ideologies but it carries its own innate unpleasent nihilism making life pointless which is a god reason not to propogate it.
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