SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm intrigued. Can Linda account for the fact that my car shouldn't be able to start if physicalism was true?

Maybe. Linda's built for two. And she vibrates.

logical bob wrote:I await a logical thought to the point! Is here the kindergarten for babies?

logical bob wrote:I await a logical thought to the point! Is here the kindergarten for babies?

Yes my friend welcome you've come to the right place !

Spinozasgalt wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'm intrigued. Can Linda account for the fact that my car shouldn't be able to start if physicalism was true?

Maybe. Linda's built for two. And she vibrates.

So I've heard. But are you sure she vibrates, or have you only consistently observed her to vibrate?

Maybe it's him vibrating. How would one know?

I dig vibrations. Particularly good ones.

That's the one. The Beach Boys are playing here in February, but tickets aren't on sale yet. If they're not too expensive we'll go.

The beach old men.

Do you think they make it all the way to the beach anymore? Maybe just as far as the patio these days.

It'll be fun, fun, fun 'til nursy takes my walker away...

Onyx8 wrote:The beach old men.

Hey less of the old men.

I agree.

Fallible wrote:

I think there might be a case for saying maybe they shouldn't have had children, but one cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Also, I'd want to see what your siblings felt about their experience and about whether it was worth the life they have now, which I don't see how we can obtain. Certainly my view is that if you're not good with kids and you don't want to put any effort into making their lives enjoyable, it would be irresponsible to have any.

I am offended your use of the word "maybe". Do you seriously think my parents should have had children? Their parenting has caused problems for all their children not just me. Did you really think after the account I gave that my siblings all turned into successful, fulfilled, happy thriving adults? They were severely held back from fulfilling their potential. Any happiness is in spite of my parents, not due to it.

It is not simply "irresponsible" to have children that are harmed but rather abusive.

However Andrew, we've been here before. Even you consider your continued life to be the best option, or you wouldn't be here.

This is a ridiculous point. Do you think people must be enjoying life if they haven't committed suicide? I have attempted suicide in the past by overdose and felt suicidal for long periods and have been depressed for over twenty years. I feel suicidal now. I wake up feeling terrible and spend the day recovering from that feeling.

A lot of people have a fear of death. Killing yourself is not an easy straightforward option once you find life very hard. It is not just like clicking and off switch. One woman in America tried to commit suicide by pouring petrol on herself and setting fire to herself. But she survived and then lived with severe burns and the ensuing pain.

You and others are in complete denial about the amount of pain that you are expecting people to cope with and that you are inflicting along with society which is comprised of people like you.

The fact that people think suicide is a reasonable or easy solution to anything shows either a complete callousness, or frivolity or lack of empathy.

Essentially you are simply asserting that people have a right to harm other people because you believe the harm is okay when accompanied by "Joy".

Andrew4Handel wrote:

[Reveal] Spoiler:

Fallible wrote:I think there might be a case for saying maybe they shouldn't have had children, but one cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Also, I'd want to see what your siblings felt about their experience and about whether it was worth the life they have now, which I don't see how we can obtain. Certainly my view is that if you're not good with kids and you don't want to put any effort into making their lives enjoyable, it would be irresponsible to have any.

I am offended your use of the word "maybe". Do you seriously think my parents should have had children? Their parenting has caused problems for all their children not just me. Did you really think after the account I gave that my siblings all turned into successful, fulfilled, happy thriving adults? They were severely held back from fulfilling their potential. Any happiness is in spite of my parents, not due to it.

It is not simply "irresponsible" to have children that are harmed but rather abusive.

However Andrew, we've been here before. Even you consider your continued life to be the best option, or you wouldn't be here.

This is a ridiculous point. Do you think people must be enjoying life if they haven't committed suicide? I have attempted suicide in the past by overdose and felt suicidal for long periods and have been depressed for over twenty years. I feel suicidal now. I wake up feeling terrible and spend the day recovering from that feeling.

A lot of people have a fear of death. Killing yourself is not an easy straightforward option once you find life very hard. It is not just like clicking and off switch. One woman in America tried to commit suicide by pouring petrol on herself and setting fire to herself. But she survived and then lived with severe burns and the ensuing pain.

You and others are in complete denial about the amount of pain that you are expecting people to cope with and that you are inflicting along with society which is comprised of people like you.

The fact that people think suicide is a reasonable or easy solution to anything shows either a complete callousness, or frivolity or lack of empathy.

Essentially you are simply asserting that people have a right to harm other people because you believe the harm is okay when accompanied by "Joy".

What the blue fuck are you babbling about here? She asserted no such thing.

You know, you have two choices. Get busy living, or punch out. If you don't choose to punch out, quit your fucking whining and fix your problems. Help exists. Get some.

I'll risk speaking for everyone here and say we're pretty tired of hearing from you on this topic.

Fortunately not everyone is as fucked up as your parents, a4h.

Suicide is a fucking doddle. Buy a tank of nitrogen, you can get it at any industrial gas supply. No license or permits required. Hook it to mask, put it on your face and breathe. You'll be gone in minutes, no pain, no fuss, no 3rd degree burns (jesu christus what a fucking moron that woman must have been). Better still, nitrous oxide. Go out laughing.

I'm not in denial about anything. Yeah, there are a lot of people in pain, but not my circus, not my monkeys, that's their problem. If they don't like it they have the same options all of us do - get over it, deal with it, or be done with it (ref "nitrogen" above).

The_Metatron wrote:
I'll risk speaking for everyone here and say we're pretty tired of hearing from you on this topic.

No one is forcing you to come on the thread are they?

I think peoples immediate reactions to antinatalism are to ignore any of the arguments and get hysterical essentially.

Regardless of the emotive side there is a largely theoretical argument about whether we have a right to have children and what the consequences or ramifications are. There is also the issue of the value of life and whether we have rights per se.

Sure it will be emotional distressing to think you might harmed your child but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

I haven't got any intention of harming a child if I were to have one. My antinatalism is not based on motives and intentions but the real outcomes. I am not willing to create a child when his or her existence is not necessary and I am not willing to gamble with them suffering. I am not willing to use a child to make myself happier etc.


I really wish we lived in a Disney World paradise of pleasure but unfortunately life contains suffering and other dilemmas. I am not willing to hide suffering from view to make other people feel they live in a better world than they do.

Andrew4Handel wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:I'll risk speaking for everyone here and say we're pretty tired of hearing from you on this topic.

No one is forcing you to come on the thread are they?

I think peoples immediate reactions to antinatalism are to ignore any of the arguments and get hysterical essentially.

Regardless of the emotive side there is a largely theoretical argument about whether we have a right to have children and what the consequences or ramifications are. There is also the issue of the value of life and whether we have rights per se.

Sure it will be emotional distressing to think you might harmed your child but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

I haven't got any intention of harming a child if I were to have one. My antinatalism is not based on motives and intentions but the real outcomes. I am not willing to create a child when his or her existence is not necessary and I am not willing to gamble with them suffering. I am not willing to use a child to make myself happier etc.

I really wish we lived in a Disney World paradise of pleasure but unfortunately life contains suffering and other dilemmas. I am not willing to hide suffering from view to make other people feel they live in a better world than they do.

Then, don't procreate. Simple. Problem solved.

Sure, there are people who are less qualified to procreate than others. Who's going to judge? You? Me? Fuck that.

Antinatalism. What a load of shit. It's nothing more than a mechanism by which you whine about how miserable you are.

The opposite of "hide suffering" is not "wallow in suffering".

laklak wrote:Fortunately not everyone is as fucked up as your parents, a4h.

But there is no system in place or societal pressure to stop this type of parenting. Any parent however well intentioned can seriously harm a child.


Peoples outright hostility to challenging peoples right to have children is hardly going to encourage reflective parenting.

I do resent the fact that I may have to kill myself because living becomes totally unbearable. I would prefer to stick a round and create mayhem than become an anonymous victim.

If I or someone else does kill themselves, that in itself spread suffering further because it leaves grieving friends and relatives and angry landlords. Some friends and family go onto kill themselves after experiencing someone they care about commiting suicide.

If people didn't have children we would all just die and that would be that. What is the point of prolonging life? if death means personal oblivion you aren't going to know that you or your children existed? Having children does seem like a way of prolonging life and death avoidance. So that on your deathbed you are surrounded by life and activity and it doesn't seem final. IMO.. Maybe depressing but my real thoughts.....

Having less children and decreasing the worlds population is a positive goal in itself.

There you go then, a positive goal which you are already well on your way to achieving. Well done.