Antinatalism

Thommo · **#981** by **Thommo** » Jan 15, 2016 9:30 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:I am offended your use of the word "maybe".

OlivierK · **#982** by **OlivierK** » Jan 15, 2016 9:40 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:
laklak wrote:Fortunately not everyone is as fucked up as your parents, a4h.

But there is no system in place or societal pressure to stop this type of parenting.

Bullshit. The sort of parenting you described is hugely socially unacceptable outside cults, and cult membership is also stigmatised. Beyond the societal pressure, there are also extensive laws in most jurisdictions concerning child protection from that sort of parenting.

Andrew4Handel wrote:Peoples outright hostility to challenging peoples right to have children is hardly going to encourage reflective parenting.

Sure, because it's a complete non sequitur to link a denial of rights to parenting styles. Sure there are people who shouldn't have kids, but I'm not certain that trying to ban them is the answer, and I am certain that stopping everyone having kids is not the answer.

The_Metatron · **#983** by **The_Metatron** » Jan 15, 2016 10:53 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:
laklak wrote:Fortunately not everyone is as fucked up as your parents, a4h.

But there is no system in place or societal pressure to stop this type of parenting. Any parent however well intentioned can seriously harm a child.

Peoples outright hostility to challenging peoples right to have children is hardly going to encourage reflective parenting.

I do resent the fact that I may have to kill myself because living becomes totally unbearable. I would prefer to stick a round and create mayhem than become an anonymous victim.

Well, there's some fucked up, repugnant shit.

In fact, totally full of shit.

Don't you fucking dare continue whining about how miserable your life is and that you had no choice in the matter, blah, blah, blah, then casually announce that you're perfectly willing to fuck with other people similarly.

That's the sort of horseshit which spawns the idea of murder/suicide...having the raw fucking arrogance to presume some sort of a right to impose your abject misery on any other living thing.

Oldskeptic · **#984** by **Oldskeptic** » Jan 16, 2016 6:45 am

See, that's all we need; a licensing process before the sperm and eggs are handed out to any butt reaming asshole that comes along.

Sciwoman · **#985** by **Sciwoman** » Jan 16, 2016 10:58 pm

OlivierK wrote:
Andrew4Handel wrote:
laklak wrote:Fortunately not everyone is as fucked up as your parents, a4h.

But there is no system in place or societal pressure to stop this type of parenting.

Bullshit. The sort of parenting you described is hugely socially unacceptable outside cults, and cult membership is also stigmatised. Beyond the societal pressure, there are also extensive laws in most jurisdictions concerning child protection from that sort of parenting.

Andrew4Handel wrote:Peoples outright hostility to challenging peoples right to have children is hardly going to encourage reflective parenting.

Sure, because it's a complete non sequitur to link a denial of rights to parenting styles. Sure there are people who shouldn't have kids, but I'm not certain that trying to ban them is the answer, and I am certain that stopping everyone having kids is not the answer.

At some point, no matter how screwed up your parents are or were, you have to start taking responsibility for yourself. Few people escape childhood unscathed. Yes, it can have reprecussions for years. But, no, it doesn't have to make your entire life miserable. People regularly make the choice to leave awful childhoods behind and live happy, healthy, productive lives. The key is to make a choice. It is rarely easy, but it usually more than worth the effort. Yet, I suppose it is simpler to sit in a corner and whine.

Cito di Pense · **#986** by **Cito di Pense** » Jan 17, 2016 9:48 am

Andrew4Handel wrote:I do resent the fact that I may have to kill myself because living becomes totally unbearable.

No, you wouldn't be forced to. If you wait long enough, the process will play out, and you'll die, anyway. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that's your principal complaint, and what is really causing you to think you're suffering, why you can't just admit that you do enjoy life, even a little, once in a while. Your attitude is that someone else is responsible for your suffering along these lines, and yet you appear to claim that you're responsible for killing yourself. Why not place that burden on someone else?

Andrew4Handel wrote:I would prefer to stick a round and create mayhem than become an anonymous victim.

Oh, you did, then, because while you might have the will to fire into a crowd, you won't have to will to carry out your main aim until you do the first, and then the cops will shoot you, or when the end is obvious, you'll finally be able to do it yourself. What a crutch, but it does play out over and over, it seems. The catch is that, after you're dead, you won't be around to enjoy the suffering you caused other people. What a fucked up mentality that is, sitting around and stewing about the suffering you could cause others if only you had some motivation. The shooters we know about actually develop some specific targets. Whining anonymously on the internet to people you can't identify is not going to serve you up any targets.

The one thing you don't want to do is get yourself taken alive, and sent to prison, where you'll finally get to experience some significant suffering.

We have to shout above the din of our Rice Crispies
We can't hear anything at all.
Mother chants her litany of boredom and frustration,
But we know all her suicides are fake.

Fallible · **#987** by **Fallible** » Jan 17, 2016 10:30 am

Andrew4Handel wrote:
Fallible wrote:

I think there might be a case for saying maybe they shouldn't have had children, but one cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Also, I'd want to see what your siblings felt about their experience and about whether it was worth the life they have now, which I don't see how we can obtain. Certainly my view is that if you're not good with kids and you don't want to put any effort into making their lives enjoyable, it would be irresponsible to have any.

I am offended your use of the word "maybe".

Really, I'm not interested that you're offended, so please don't bother to tell me again. I imagine you're one of those people who spend their lives offended by just about everything.

Do you seriously think my parents should have had children?

Oh, calm down. The only source of information about their parenting is you, and you have shown yourself to be somewhat less reliable than I would like. It would be stupid to make any kind of concrete statement about this on only your input. And stop making things up. I didn't say your parents should have had children, let alone 'really think' it.

Their parenting has caused problems for all their children not just me.

Sorry, I don't trust only your word. That's why I said I'd need to see what your siblings had to say, which will never happen.

Did you really think after the account I gave that my siblings all turned into successful, fulfilled, happy thriving adults?

No, I didn't even say it, let alone 'really think' it. I only know what you say here, and that I don't believe anyway.

They were severely held back from fulfilling their potential. Any happiness is in spite of my parents, not due to it.

Cool story bro.

It is not simply "irresponsible" to have children that are harmed but rather abusive.

What a wonderfully woolly utterance.

However Andrew, we've been here before. Even you consider your continued life to be the best option, or you wouldn't be here.

This is a ridiculous point. Do you think people must be enjoying life if they haven't committed suicide?

Again, this is why I think you're trolling. You are apparently intelligent, and yet you point blank refuse to engage with what is actually in front of you, preferring to manufacture your own opposition to argue with. You're lucky you haven't yet been had up for misrepresentation. Quote me. Where did I say that people must be enjoying life if they haven't committed suicide?

I have attempted suicide in the past by overdose and felt suicidal for long periods and have been depressed for over twenty years. I feel suicidal now. I wake up feeling terrible and spend the day recovering from that feeling.

And yet your suicidal ideation and depression don't prevent you from trolling on the internet. Colour me entirely unconvinced.

A lot of people have a fear of death. Killing yourself is not an easy straightforward option once you find life very hard. It is not just like clicking and off switch. One woman in America tried to commit suicide by pouring petrol on herself and setting fire to herself. But she survived and then lived with severe burns and the ensuing pain.

It's amusing to me to see you talking this way, as though you are the only person who has felt suicidal, and as though you think you are the first 'suicidal' person I've ever come across. I'm not entirely sure what your anecdote is intended to convey. That some people choose stupid ways to die which don't always succeed? Yes, people can be stupid. And?

You and others are in complete denial about the amount of pain that you are expecting people to cope with and that you are inflicting along with society which is comprised of people like you.

And you are, just for a little change, speaking directly from the depths of your fundament. Nowhere have I said I expect people to cope with anything. You're trolling plain and simple, and that's why you get no sympathy from me whatsoever. You're not interested in discussing anything, you just want to play silly games with your facsimile of what you think a depressed person looks like. If you think no one realises this, it's you in complete denial.

The fact that people think suicide is a reasonable or easy solution to anything shows either a complete callousness, or frivolity or lack of empathy.

Again here, you manufacture a position to become indignant about. Nowhere did I say that suicide is an easy solution. You made that up. I said that life for you is preferable, or you wouldn't be here. This is trivially true. You have the option to end your life and have certainly had long enough to think about it if you are to be believed. You've found out what doesn't work, assuming for a moment that I believe you and you have attempted suicide. I know of several ways in which you could end your life relatively simply and effectively and I'm sure you will have come up with some yourself. Yet you go on living - at this time you choose that. Therefore it is preferable to you. It is the best option.

Essentially you are simply asserting that people have a right to harm other people because you believe the harm is okay when accompanied by "Joy".

Essentially you are trolling as hard and as fast as your little fingers will let you by manufacturing the positions of others out of thin air. I wonder how many times you've actually been reported for this up to now.

Fallible · **#988** by **Fallible** » Jan 17, 2016 10:36 am

Andrew4Handel wrote:No one is forcing you to come on the thread are they?

I think peoples immediate reactions to antinatalism are to ignore any of the arguments and get hysterical essentially.

[...]

If you're not trolling, what you think, especially when it's so divorced from reality, is irrelevant.

Since you are trolling, this stands as a clear example of you misrepresenting your opposition.

THWOTH · **#989** by **THWOTH** » Jan 17, 2016 12:20 pm

Andrew4Handel wrote:
Fallible wrote:

I think there might be a case for saying maybe they shouldn't have had children, but one cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Also, I'd want to see what your siblings felt about their experience and about whether it was worth the life they have now, which I don't see how we can obtain. Certainly my view is that if you're not good with kids and you don't want to put any effort into making their lives enjoyable, it would be irresponsible to have any.

I am offended your use of the word "maybe". Do you seriously think my parents should have had children? Their parenting has caused problems for all their children not just me. Did you really think after the account I gave that my siblings all turned into successful, fulfilled, happy thriving adults? They were severely held back from fulfilling their potential. Any happiness is in spite of my parents, not due to it.

It is not simply "irresponsible" to have children that are harmed but rather abusive.

However Andrew, we've been here before. Even you consider your continued life to be the best option, or you wouldn't be here.

This is a ridiculous point. Do you think people must be enjoying life if they haven't committed suicide? I have attempted suicide in the past by overdose and felt suicidal for long periods and have been depressed for over twenty years. I feel suicidal now. I wake up feeling terrible and spend the day recovering from that feeling.

A lot of people have a fear of death. Killing yourself is not an easy straightforward option once you find life very hard. It is not just like clicking and off switch. One woman in America tried to commit suicide by pouring petrol on herself and setting fire to herself. But she survived and then lived with severe burns and the ensuing pain.

You and others are in complete denial about the amount of pain that you are expecting people to cope with and that you are inflicting along with society which is comprised of people like you.

The fact that people think suicide is a reasonable or easy solution to anything shows either a complete callousness, or frivolity or lack of empathy.

Essentially you are simply asserting that people have a right to harm other people because you believe the harm is okay when accompanied by "Joy".

Nobody is denying your suffering, it's just that most rational people do not maintain that your suffering is or should be the measure by which they value their existence or the existence of their offspring.

I've asked you this before, and you've still not addressed it: why does suffering outbid it's opposite, pleasure, such that possible suffering warrants your view and possible pleasure doesn't?

Alan B · **#990** by **Alan B** » Jan 17, 2016 12:31 pm

A4H
The trick is to place yourself outside your parent's box and look inside as an external observer. Try it.

Scot Dutchy · **#991** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jan 17, 2016 12:33 pm

Alan B wrote:A4H
The trick is to place yourself outside your parent's box and look inside as an external observer. Try it.

I did that when I was 17.

Ironclad · **#992** by **Ironclad** » Feb 08, 2016 12:08 am

!	GENERAL MODNOTE ALL - This thread has seen far too many personalisations and unkind remarks; while this thread will remain locked for a few hours while we perform a little housekeeping we would ask members involved to keep to the topic, or find another thread to enjoy. Thank you

dochmbi · **#993** by **dochmbi** » Jul 25, 2016 2:19 am

The question I find truly interesting is whether the emotional reaction against antinatalism is necessarily so strong that reasoned, philosophical analysis becomes impossible. Am I simply forced to hold a positive view of life, could I be blind to my own suffering by design? Then again I don't see how there is any objective way to answer this question.
However I'm left with the lingering feeling that since I'm much better off believing that living is good, that there are many wonderful things in the world, and that belief itself will make me feel so much better, I'm left unable to make rational evaluations on natalism vs antinatalism.

Fair point by the mod Ironclad here too. I feel like it's important to stay away from making things too personal and keep the discussion general.

THWOTH · **#994** by **THWOTH** » Jul 25, 2016 2:32 am

What is natalism, and does objecting to antinatalism necessarily entail it?

dochmbi · **#995** by **dochmbi** » Jul 25, 2016 2:34 am

I removed the part about murder etc, because killing people is different to not creating people in the first place.

Cito di Pense · **#996** by **Cito di Pense** » Jul 25, 2016 4:10 am

THWOTH wrote:What is natalism, and does objecting to antinatalism necessarily entail it?

Anti-natalism is just a failure to come up with a robust response to the absurdity of the human condition. There are other brands of this kind of failure, but this one is among the most impotent.

dochmbi wrote:Am I simply forced to hold a positive view of life, could I be blind to my own suffering by design?

You don't have to blind yourself to it, but simply whining about it is not a robust solution. Perhaps you've noticed that a number of people rededicate themselves to life by purchasing a VTOL drone with a minicam, and flying it around the neighborhood. Yet others rededicate themselves to life by shooting down VTOL drones.

THWOTH · **#997** by **THWOTH** » Jul 25, 2016 5:55 pm

Aye, in the end each of us have to decide if we're a flyer or a shooter.
:shifty:

Fallible · **#998** by **Fallible** » Jul 25, 2016 5:59 pm

I'm a flooter.

Or a shyter.

laklak · **#999** by **laklak** » Jul 25, 2016 6:02 pm

Can I be a flying shooter?

BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA! BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA! DIE COMMIE!

Onyx8 · **#1000** by **Onyx8** » Jul 26, 2016 1:48 am

Fallible wrote:I'm a flooter.

Or a shyter.

Not sure you got the spelling there, F.

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