Consciousness is Not a Thing

or a process, or anything for that matter

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#81  Postby GrahamH » Sep 17, 2018 6:55 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Macdoc wrote:I have no time or interest for gobblety gook philobabble.....hunt up Jamest.

...


I kind of agree but the issue is that other people are never going to shut up about it until philosophy writes the chapter that shuts them up.

We know everything we need to know about how we have subjective experiences. Though in some cases the exact system details are still choosing between one or another model. If you sit down and read 1% of that science you no longer have the hard problem for yourself. The only thing left is this sense of 'how could this brain NOT be conscious?".

So a deep trek into the science has left me with an intuitive understanding of my subjective experience much like a tour of spdf orbitals has left me with a satisfying intuitive understanding of table salt.

What I am trying to do in philosophy, and so far naively failing, is to change our semantics a bit so we can have a clean analysis of what it means to understand things like table salt and our own minds. That last is difficult. We are trying to use our flashlight on the beam of our flashlight. Something has to be wrong with that approach.



In light of current discussion what's wrong with that approach is that it supposes that you have a view from inside, that "an intuitive understanding of my subjective experience" is any use at all for getting to grips with what C is, how it can be subjective and experiential at all.

I think you are trying to use beam of your virtual reality flashlight in the hope that it will illuminate something of your brain that explains C from your inner subjective view, but the flashlight can't shine out and your brain isn't inside so that route is futile.

I think we have the changed semantics. There is no hard problem. Thoughts don't originate from within a subjective mind. The brain creates the map and generates the thoughts and recognises the map as the self having experiences as if it was the thinker.


It might help if you can discard the idea that it's your mind that is working on this problem. Your brain is working on it and attributing some of the results to a subject having thoughts.


Now THAT is interesting. You just represented me as doing the polar opposite of what I am in fact doing. Where have we failed each other in the endeavor to communicate?


I'm hoping we just need to tune into the same changed semantics and drop some phrases that have the taint of worn out metaphors. "light of consciousness is one of those. Mind examining mind is another. Throw out the Cogito.

Don't appeal to intuition about self, it is almost guaranteed to mislead.
Don't treat subject and object as two things, consider subject-experiences-qualia-of-object as a unit construction.
Be very sceptical of the concept of introspection. if there is no subject mind thinking it's own thoughts then introspection is a lie. It must be a brain constructing the thoughts and attributing them to a model or schema of a self that is not actually interior and cannot think for itself. Now it's simpler. Everything is projected in from outside. All the work is brain activity.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#82  Postby Macdoc » Sep 18, 2018 2:52 am

Nothing wrong with introspection....my computer can run a Malware scan without it in any way interfering with the work I'm doing.

It can be automatic ( so not in conscious awareness ) or I can consciously initiate the internal examination.

No different than me querying myself as to energy levls - headache etc...body/brain systems run along under the conscious radar just like the malware scan on auto and then if I need a coffee as now a small headache alerts me and it drifts to front of mind and gets more insistent if ignored.

Self assessment, self examination is an easy concept ...even your car with it's oil light, fuel gauges etc
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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#83  Postby GrahamH » Sep 18, 2018 8:00 am

Macdoc wrote:Nothing wrong with introspection....my computer can run a Malware scan without it in any way interfering with the work I'm doing.

It can be automatic ( so not in conscious awareness ) or I can consciously initiate the internal examination.

No different than me querying myself as to energy levls - headache etc...body/brain systems run along under the conscious radar just like the malware scan on auto and then if I need a coffee as now a small headache alerts me and it drifts to front of mind and gets more insistent if ignored.

Self assessment, self examination is an easy concept ...even your car with it's oil light, fuel gauges etc


That's not introspection. You've used the word "internal" without defining what you mean by it. For consciousness it means "within the mind" and before that is possible you have to work out what "mind" means.
I think what you mean was a vague sense of "inside the box (computer case)"

What you are doing in fact is attributing an ill-defined property of consciousness to something else. We do that a lot. We do it to puppets, animations, toys, nature and machines Being able to make such attributions is key to Graziano's work, but the "mind" of the puppet lives in your brain, not in the mechanism.


Read the book. It's good and I think you would like it. Be assured there is no woo in it.
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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#84  Postby felltoearth » Sep 18, 2018 4:04 pm

I've started reading the book. Very interesting take. Looking forward to finishing it.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#85  Postby Macdoc » Sep 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Not Introspection ??

introspection
ɪntrə(ʊ)ˈspɛkʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes.
"quiet introspection can be extremely valuable"


but the "mind" of the puppet lives in your brain, not in the mechanism.


THIS is dualistic woo. :coffee:
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Re: Consciousness is Not a Thing

#86  Postby GrahamH » Sep 18, 2018 6:10 pm

Macdoc wrote:Not Introspection ??

introspection
ɪntrə(ʊ)ˈspɛkʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes.
"quiet introspection can be extremely valuable"


but the "mind" of the puppet lives in your brain, not in the mechanism.


THIS is dualistic woo. :coffee:


No it isn't. Try again.
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