Do all mathematical proofs have value?

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Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#1  Postby jamest » Mar 30, 2018 11:30 pm

I'm not a mathematician, yet respect the intelligence and genius required to be a good one. However, from a philosophical perspective I'd like to explore the value of ALL mathematical proofs. That is, I'm not denying that some (if not most) are valuable. I'm just curious as to whether they're ALL valuable. I mean, I saw Cali's post here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/fun-g ... l#p2623602

Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#2  Postby Animavore » Mar 31, 2018 12:23 am

Yes. They all have the value x = ?
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#3  Postby jamest » Mar 31, 2018 12:29 am

Animavore wrote:Yes. They all have the value x = ?

The OP made clear that I'm looking for potential metaphysical value in such proofs. I do not doubt for an instant
that xyzzy = ppsedu2. I'm just wondering if there's any value in proving it.
Last edited by jamest on Mar 31, 2018 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#4  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 31, 2018 12:32 am

Animavore wrote:Yes. They all have the value x = ?

Although, the underlying metaphysical value may vary, depending upon how the observation has been orchestrated. That is, x may not be equal to observed y. Therefore, any real mathematical value is put into question from a metaphysical perspective.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 31, 2018 12:34 am

jamest wrote:I'm not a mathematician, yet respect the intelligence and genius required to be a good one. However, from a philosophical perspective I'd like to explore the value of ALL mathematical proofs. That is, I'm not denying that some (if not most) are valuable. I'm just curious as to whether they're ALL valuable. I mean, I saw Cali's post here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/fun-g ... l#p2623602

Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.

Does metaphysics have value?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#6  Postby jamest » Mar 31, 2018 12:35 am

LucidFlight wrote:
Animavore wrote:Yes. They all have the value x = ?

Although, the underlying metaphysical value may vary, depending upon how the observation has been orchestrated. That is, x may not be equal to observed y. Therefore, any real mathematical value is put into question from a metaphysical perspective.

Metaphysical values do not vary, they are absolute. Either x = reality, or it does not. There's no middle-ground.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#7  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 31, 2018 12:36 am

What is the metametaphysical value of the metaphysical value of ALL mathematical proofs?
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#8  Postby jamest » Mar 31, 2018 12:37 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm not a mathematician, yet respect the intelligence and genius required to be a good one. However, from a philosophical perspective I'd like to explore the value of ALL mathematical proofs. That is, I'm not denying that some (if not most) are valuable. I'm just curious as to whether they're ALL valuable. I mean, I saw Cali's post here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/fun-g ... l#p2623602

Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.

Does metaphysics have value?

Of course metaphysics has value. That's why we're all blowing each other up with explosives, etc..
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#9  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 31, 2018 12:39 am

jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm not a mathematician, yet respect the intelligence and genius required to be a good one. However, from a philosophical perspective I'd like to explore the value of ALL mathematical proofs. That is, I'm not denying that some (if not most) are valuable. I'm just curious as to whether they're ALL valuable. I mean, I saw Cali's post here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/fun-g ... l#p2623602

Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.

Does metaphysics have value?

Of course metaphysics has value.

Demonstrate James, don't asssert.

jamest wrote:That's why we're all blowing each other up with explosives, etc..

I don't know in what kind of alternate reality you find yourself, but don't presume to speak for others.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#10  Postby jamest » Mar 31, 2018 12:46 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm not a mathematician, yet respect the intelligence and genius required to be a good one. However, from a philosophical perspective I'd like to explore the value of ALL mathematical proofs. That is, I'm not denying that some (if not most) are valuable. I'm just curious as to whether they're ALL valuable. I mean, I saw Cali's post here:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/fun-g ... l#p2623602

Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.

Does metaphysics have value?

Of course metaphysics has value.

Demonstrate James, don't asssert.

jamest wrote:That's why we're all blowing each other up with explosives, etc..

I don't know in what kind of alternate reality you find yourself, but don't presume to speak for others.

Every single action we take is based upon our own metaphysical values. The reality we realise. This should be fucking obvious, but if it's not then consider that if you consider yourself to BE a physical human-being then that's going to have profound repercussions for the decisions that you thereafter make. Likewise, if you're a theist, the same. Moreover, depending upon the kind of theist you are, whether you'll use terrorism or reason to communicate your 'truth'.

Human history has been a metaphysical debate/war since day one. Still is.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#11  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 31, 2018 1:02 am

jamest wrote:Lots of 'proofs'. Do they ALL have metaphysical potential and hence value? That's what I want to discuss.

In order to help the discussion along, what would be an example of a proof with metaphysical potential, in your opinion? And, what do you mean by metaphysical potential?
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 31, 2018 1:17 am

jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
jamest wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Does metaphysics have value?

Of course metaphysics has value.

Demonstrate James, don't asssert.

jamest wrote:That's why we're all blowing each other up with explosives, etc..

I don't know in what kind of alternate reality you find yourself, but don't presume to speak for others.

Every single action we take is based upon our own metaphysical values. The reality we realise. This should be fucking obvious, but if it's not then consider that if you consider yourself to BE a physical human-being then that's going to have profound repercussions for the decisions that you thereafter make. Likewise, if you're a theist, the same. Moreover, depending upon the kind of theist you are, whether you'll use terrorism or reason to communicate your 'truth'.

Human history has been a metaphysical debate/war since day one. Still is.

Yet more empty assertions.
I asked you to demonstrate James, not pile on more claims that you fail to support.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#13  Postby Greyman » Mar 31, 2018 1:30 am

Okay, now, we can affirm that mathematical proofs have truth-value. Proofs resulting from rigorous applications of axioms and rules are at least as truth-valued as those axioms and rules.

So does truth have metaphysical value? Well...
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#14  Postby Thommo » Mar 31, 2018 3:01 am

Do all mathematical proofs have value?

They all have a Gödel number at least. :shifty:
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#15  Postby Thommo » Mar 31, 2018 3:07 am

More seriously: "value" is an undefined term, there's no way to answer the question without putting one's own interpretation in.

If "value" means (a) can be used in some metaphysical argument and (b) have value commensurate to that metaphysical argument, then I'm going to say no, in fact by that metric no mathematical proof has value since metaphysics has no value.

But all I've done is changed my valuation scheme and punted the can down the road - it now comes down to the "value" I place on metaphysics (which is nil, and negative for the sorts of things James calls metaphysics). I suppose we could debate whether "nil" and "negative" values are values though, that might while away the wee hours.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#16  Postby OlivierK » Mar 31, 2018 5:19 am

jamest wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:
Animavore wrote:Yes. They all have the value x = ?

Although, the underlying metaphysical value may vary, depending upon how the observation has been orchestrated. That is, x may not be equal to observed y. Therefore, any real mathematical value is put into question from a metaphysical perspective.

Metaphysical values do not vary, they are absolute. Either x = reality, or it does not. There's no middle-ground.

Well, mathematical proofs are abstractions, so if you believe that what you've written above is the relevant test, then the answer to your original question is "no".
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#17  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 31, 2018 8:05 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:What is the metametaphysical value of the metaphysical value of ALL mathematical proofs?

If it can be shown, metaphysically, that 1+1=1, then its metaphysical value is to invalidate ALL Darwinian and materialist truths in mathematics. If it can indeed be shown that everything is nought but the indivisible one that is everything, then we have every right as philosophers to demand that mathematicians around the world burn their copies of Principia Mathematica and embrace the revolutionary paradigm change that will eliminate all wars, poverty, and disease.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#18  Postby Thommo » Mar 31, 2018 8:12 am

LucidFlight wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:What is the metametaphysical value of the metaphysical value of ALL mathematical proofs?

If it can be shown, metaphysically, that 1+1=1, then its metaphysical value is to invalidate ALL Darwinian and materialist truths in mathematics. If it can indeed be shown that everything is nought but the indivisible one that is everything, then we have every right as philosophers to demand that mathematicians around the world burn their copies of Principia Mathematica and embrace the revolutionary paradigm change that will eliminate all wars, poverty, and disease.


You may find this article about Tits and Fun of relevance/interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#19  Postby newolder » Mar 31, 2018 8:30 am

Posted recently, by Calilasseia in the Til topic, if it's not in the proofwiki then it's not in the proofwiki. Ooops! I didn't follow the link in the OP.
Last edited by newolder on Mar 31, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do all mathematical proofs have value?

#20  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 31, 2018 8:39 am

Thommo wrote:You may find this article about Tits and Fun of relevance/interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element


Fascinating. Only someone who has transcended this material realm will be able to access the undefinable object, and that takes some strong commutative algebraic monads congruent on a generalised ring, if you know what I mean. *wink wink*

No badgers were harmed during the production of this post.
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