Covid-19 has impacted upon our liberties to such an extreme, both personal and financial, that in my opinion it proves democracy and capitalism are such a sham that future historians will point to this event in time when analysing the demise of both ideals.

Our governments have FORCED their people to isolate in their houses in The West, nay worldwide, being threatened with prison/fines (minimum) if they don't do so. There was no attempt to engage the people here (anywhere) prior to these actions. Millions upon millions of us have basically been enforced to give up our personal and financial freedoms by governments who initially came into power as advocates of personal and financial freedoms. That is undeniably true!!!

You can argue until you're blue in the face that "these are crazy times", but if both democracy and capitalism result in an end-game where we lose our personal and financial freedoms "OR ELSE!", then I must insist that both democracy and capitalism themselves have reached their own end-game, for they have subsequently failed abysmally to deliver what they promised to deliver.


We don't know yet how many people will be killed by covid-19. Personally, I am of the opinion that the proceeding economical disaster will kill numbers into the billions. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong on that, I stand firm on the declaration that covid-19 has unveiled the Judas within this last supper of ours.

I doubt it.

Given enough time billions will die and billions will be born. Like your other threads, the power of predictions lies in actually making a prediction rather than vague hand waving.

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it, because you daren't face the consequences. But the facts are that this covid-19 crisis HAS exposed the folly of both democracy and capitalism. That's undeniable. If you don't believe me, then ask one of the MANY millions or even billions of people forced to stay within their homes for the last few weeks who have also been forced to close down their working activities.

There isn't a rational argument in the world that allows people to be confined indefintely within their homes and simultaneously prohibits them from making money, which can claim to support democracy and capitalism. If you "doubt it", then explain why instead of parroting a two word mantra.

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it...

You're wrong.

All those democratic governments that have curtailed freedoms in the name of public health will have to go to democratic elections soon enough. With substantial majority support for COVID-19 response measures in most countries, I doubt that incumbent governments are that worried about being voted out, nor their polities worried about the end of democracy.

felltoearth wrote:Given enough time billions will die and billions will be born. Like your other threads, the power of predictions lies in actually making a prediction rather than vague hand waving.

We're talking about political ideals here, not the number of people who have/will die.

This covid-19 emergency has exposed the ludicrousness of how 'free' we are, personally/financially, and how shite the mantra "for the people, by the people" actually is. I don't even know how or why you would attempt to deny that in the present climate.

Thommo wrote:

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it...

You're wrong.

You're two-word mantras here will have very limited success on the intellectual-front.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 20526.html

Coronavirus: UK lockdown supported by 93 per cent of public, poll finds

The government is doing what the people want, in the good of the public overall as best as it can given all the information we lack.

Most people aren't stupid and most people understand this.

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it...

You're wrong.

You're two-word mantras here will have very limited success on the intellectual-front.

You're using the word mantra incorrectly, again.

Given you just got back from yet another suspension for late night needling and insulting one might think the sensible response would be to dial it down a bit and converse on an intellectual level rather than making yet more thinly disguised insults.

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it, because you daren't face the consequences. But the facts are that this covid-19 crisis HAS exposed the folly of both democracy and capitalism. That's undeniable. If you don't believe me, then ask one of the MANY millions or even billions of people forced to stay within their homes for the last few weeks who have also been forced to close down their working activities.

There isn't a rational argument in the world that allows people to be confined indefintely within their homes and simultaneously prohibits them from making money, which can claim to support democracy and capitalism. If you "doubt it", then explain why instead of parroting a two word mantra.

Because in most social democracies, public health is a well-established, and well-supported, purpose of government, and recent government actions are a government response to a public health issue. This is literally what governments are for - society-wide coordinated action beyond the scope of any one individual.

OlivierK wrote:All those democratic governments that have curtailed freedoms in the name of public health will have to go to democratic elections soon enough. With substantial majority support for COVID-19 response measures in most countries, I doubt that incumbent governments are that worried about being voted out, nor their polities worried about the end of democracy.

That's not the fucking point of democracy and personal freedoms, including financial freedoms. The point is that when a so-called DEMOCRACY prohibits you from leaving your own home (except for special police-enforced circumstances) and prohibits you from being at work and making money (except for special police-enforced circumstances), then both democracy and capitalism have been BADGERED!

This is not even up for discussion, as it's self-evident.

What we need to discuss next, is the next political paradigm for The West. So, it's heads out of arses time.

You're not banned from leaving your home by law in the UK, actually. There are legal restrictions, but nothing like as broad as that.

OK, lets grant that lockdown where you can't go out and can't work (in some industries) is a new paradigm.

My vote then is that the next paradigm will be pretty much like the last (pre-lockdown) one.

Pfft. Speed limits were the real end of democracy. And seatbelts.

And not being allowed to tip mercury in rivers, or put lead in paint or fuel.

Jamest is right, we're definitely living in the post-freedom age.

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:

jamest wrote:

Thommo wrote:I doubt it.

I rather think that you fear it...

You're wrong.

You're two-word mantras here will have very limited success on the intellectual-front.

"Your"

The number of words Thommo has used is commensurate with the intellectual value of posts #1 and #4.

Thommo wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-boris-johnson-poll-yougov-latest-a9420526.html

Coronavirus: UK lockdown supported by 93 per cent of public, poll finds

The government is doing what the people want, in the good of the public overall as best as it can given all the information we lack.

Most people aren't stupid and most people understand this.

Even assuming that this poll is genuine, it was taken AFTER the government acted. In other words, the government forced everyone to stay home and not earn money BEFORE the poll. You don't appear to understand what democracy means.

Further, 'the people' in general are quite simple and seem to trust their government (in general) with such shit until the point that they're starving. That point hasn't happened yet, but let's get two things clear here:

1) Don't trust polls until people are hungry.
2) The way your government is responding to this emergency FUNDAMENTALLY destroys the Western ideals of both democracy and capitalism. Fact!


I acknowledge that people are afraid and have no other power/authority to look to than the government, but that government
HAS ALREADY BETRAYED YOU, because it's ONLY in power to preserve your personal and financial freedoms!!!!!


You all need to think about this at a time when you are not feeling particularly fearful, for when you do you will vehemently agree with me that the government's actions to counteract this virus ALL hint at a preference to preserve GOVERNMENT, as opposed to preserve democracy/freedom.


Any democratic government SHOULD be enforcing laws to encourage personal and financial freedoms AT ALL TIMES.

NEVER forget that. Or else, resolve to change your political ideals!!!!!

Spinozasgalt wrote:Pfft. Speed limits were the real end of democracy. And seatbelts.

You can't even do Sydney to Adelaide nonstop any more! Cameras positioned at strategic points of the highway take photos of the numberplate of your truck, digitise it, and impound your truck if you get caught repeatedly ignoring mandated rest periods and maximum driving hours. The gummint is taking away my financial freedom! Haaalp!

Democracy seems fine, but capitalism is being shown to be a bit problematic.