archibald wrote:

GrahamH wrote:Is there a difference to literally being the other person? I took him to mean that I might in some sense find myself (not being you) in your life, with your environment and your genes etc but still somehow not being you. What do you think he means?

I think he means the former, literally being the other person.

Then it seems a vacuous thing to say. the other person isn't you. It's contradictory to say you are not you.

GrahamH wrote:

John Platko wrote:

GrahamH wrote:If that's the best you can manage in reply you should stop.

You're not getting away with such bullshit so easily.

Let's play. So you tell me what in-circuit emulator I should hook up to an Intel Core i9-7900X (or any modern intel) processing core and then we can see exactly what logic states it saves. How about a link to the emulator manual?

It should be easy to do if what you say is true.

Here's an ebay link for your Christmas emulator shopping - Christmas 1989 that is.

Aren't you embarrassed to post such shit?

I'm a bit embarrassed for you. And I imagine I'm not the only one.

You are actually conceding my point, that ICE is one of many ways to precisely record and set 0the state of a digital computer,

Not is, was, back in the day. And even then, not all logic states were saved. I'm still waiting for you to give us a link to an ICE for a modern intel core processor. How long will I have to wait. Now, can you guess why you can't find any?

while having nothing better to say than it was valid in 1989.

Or there abouts. I'm not sure you could get an ICE for a state of the art processor in 1989 which would be something like a MIPS core.

The point is made, and of course it is true and I have given many ways that the states of computers can be measured and reinstated. High end modern CPUs are well able to instrument themselves.

The only made point I see is that you haven't provided a link to a ICE for a modern intel core processor. And I have not seen any explanation of how one could save every logic state in the core. I know why you haven't provided one - it is impossible to do so. But by all means prove me wrong. Give us the details. The home team is rooting for you. Everyone wants to see you show me up. Now all you have to do is leave the fantasy world of "in principle" and provide evidence for your claim in the world of "in reality." Good luck with that.

Here's another example- virtual machines. I could send you an exact copy on my PC in a file and you could run the emulation to resume the operation of my PC just as it was when I took the snapshot.

Ummmm. Before we move on to your knew virtual machine fantasy, show us exactly how this exact copy snapshot of your PC is taken. Tis impossible in practice.

Are you imagining some immaterial ghosts inhabit your PC and influence it's function?

No, I just know that at the speeds modern cores run it is impossible to capture all the logic states in the device. Old fault tolerant mainframes were designed to do pretty much that but that was decades ago. I know of one machine that could stop the works if an error was detected, then software could suck the bits out, fix the error, return the bits and things would go on as if nothing bad happened. And that's pretty amazing. And it turned out to be useful because there was something about the lead (Pb) that was used in the devices that was radioactive and emitting alpha particles and causing bits to flip - so the bit fix feature was useful. I think they had to find Roman lead or something to get the alpha particle rate low enough.

Perhaps you think there is some sort or connection to events actually happening n the past or future that control what your PC does today over and beyond its measurable physical state. You haven't said.

It's far less exotic than that, processors run too fast to make ICEs for them and the kind of fault tolerance that was built into mainframes, like the one I mentioned is far more economically done with multiple processors and software.

Please update your mental computer Knowledge, while it's fun to remember the good old days, this is the 21st century.

JP, you have no argument at all. A computer that cannot be set to a defined state is not a computer, its a bit of rock passing random currents. The ability to load defined states into computers and the possibility to read those states is amply attested by programs and tools in everyday use across the world, none of which have you even attempted to refute. You must realise you can't refute such evident facts so you don't try, you just bluster about how a few of these things used to be true while failing to make any case for them not being true now gets you nowhere. Continuing this exchange with you is utterly futile but if anyone else is unclear I am more than happy to go into any details of how and why it is fundamental to computers that they can be set and reset to precise known states.

GrahamH wrote:JP, you have no argument at all. A computer that cannot be set to a defined state is not a computer, its a bit of rock passing random currents.

Why not just show that you're right by linking in the reality of your prior claims. Where is the ICE for my computer? How do I snapshot every logic state? How do I reload my computer to an exact old state? Where is the magic machine that uses JTAG to snapshot my computer? If what you claim is true then you should be able to demonstrate it.

Snark won't get you out of the hole you dug yourself into. Only a demonstration of the truth of what you say will. So go ahead, show us how you save every logic state of a modern home computer.

One can imagine doing it, but one can't do it.

John Platko wrote:

GrahamH wrote:JP, you have no argument at all. A computer that cannot be set to a defined state is not a computer, its a bit of rock passing random currents.

Why not just show that you're right by linking in the reality of your prior claims. Where is the ICE for my computer? How do I snapshot every logic state? How do I reload my computer to an exact old state? Where is the magic machine that uses JTAG to snapshot my computer? If what you claim is true then you should be able to demonstrate it.

Snark won't get you out of the hole you dug yourself into. Only a demonstration of the truth of what you say will. So go ahead, show us how you save every logic state of a modern home computer.

One can imagine doing it, but one can't do it.

John, you are talking nonsemse, and evidently didn't follow the discussion on this thread between myself and Graham, or don't know much about computers. A computer can normally be reset to a particular exact state, by simply restarting it, or pressing the reset button. This does not require any magic.

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

GrahamH wrote:JP, you have no argument at all. A computer that cannot be set to a defined state is not a computer, its a bit of rock passing random currents.

Why not just show that you're right by linking in the reality of your prior claims. Where is the ICE for my computer? How do I snapshot every logic state? How do I reload my computer to an exact old state? Where is the magic machine that uses JTAG to snapshot my computer? If what you claim is true then you should be able to demonstrate it.

Snark won't get you out of the hole you dug yourself into. Only a demonstration of the truth of what you say will. So go ahead, show us how you save every logic state of a modern home computer.

One can imagine doing it, but one can't do it.

John, you are talking nonsemse, and evidently didn't follow the discussion on this thread between myself and Graham, or don't know much about computers. A computer can normally be reset to a particular exact state, by simply restarting it, or pressing the reset button. This does not require any magic.

My computer does not return to the exact same logical state every time I press the reset button. That is a fact. It is nonsense to say otherwise. When I pressed reset a couple of years ago it went to a state which is very different that the one that it will go to if I press reset today. And in fact, if I press reset several times today it will end up at different states every time. - for more than one reason (although there is an obvious big reason why this is so). And no magic is required.

My post responding to Graham's incorrect comments about what is possible to do on modern home computers is independent to your discussion with Graham. But if you really want to help him out, give some actual evidence to support his actual claim.

from

Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated.

John Platko wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

GrahamH wrote:JP, you have no argument at all. A computer that cannot be set to a defined state is not a computer, its a bit of rock passing random currents.

Why not just show that you're right by linking in the reality of your prior claims. Where is the ICE for my computer? How do I snapshot every logic state? How do I reload my computer to an exact old state? Where is the magic machine that uses JTAG to snapshot my computer? If what you claim is true then you should be able to demonstrate it.

Snark won't get you out of the hole you dug yourself into. Only a demonstration of the truth of what you say will. So go ahead, show us how you save every logic state of a modern home computer.

One can imagine doing it, but one can't do it.

John, you are talking nonsemse, and evidently didn't follow the discussion on this thread between myself and Graham, or don't know much about computers. A computer can normally be reset to a particular exact state, by simply restarting it, or pressing the reset button. This does not require any magic.

My computer does not return to the exact same logical state every time I press the reset button. That is a fact. It is nonsense to say otherwise. When I pressed reset a couple of years ago it went to a state which is very different that the one that it will go to if I press reset today. And in fact, if I press reset several times today it will end up at different states every time. - for more than one reason (although there is an obvious big reason why this is so). And no magic is required.

My post responding to Graham's incorrect comments about what is possible to do on modern home computers is independent to your discussion with Graham. But if you really want to help him out, give some actual evidence to support his actual claim.

from

Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated.

This is all irrelevant, because, unlike with humans, it is possible, in principle, at least, to arrange things so that a reset DOES set a computer back to an exact past state.

Who is to blame for a Daredevil's Death? BBC news item.

It's good to see the bbc casting doubt on the concept of free will in this way imo.

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Why not just show that you're right by linking in the reality of your prior claims. Where is the ICE for my computer? How do I snapshot every logic state? How do I reload my computer to an exact old state? Where is the magic machine that uses JTAG to snapshot my computer? If what you claim is true then you should be able to demonstrate it.

Snark won't get you out of the hole you dug yourself into. Only a demonstration of the truth of what you say will. So go ahead, show us how you save every logic state of a modern home computer.

One can imagine doing it, but one can't do it.

John, you are talking nonsemse, and evidently didn't follow the discussion on this thread between myself and Graham, or don't know much about computers. A computer can normally be reset to a particular exact state, by simply restarting it, or pressing the reset button. This does not require any magic.

My computer does not return to the exact same logical state every time I press the reset button. That is a fact. It is nonsense to say otherwise. When I pressed reset a couple of years ago it went to a state which is very different that the one that it will go to if I press reset today. And in fact, if I press reset several times today it will end up at different states every time. - for more than one reason (although there is an obvious big reason why this is so). And no magic is required.

My post responding to Graham's incorrect comments about what is possible to do on modern home computers is independent to your discussion with Graham. But if you really want to help him out, give some actual evidence to support his actual claim.

from

Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated.

This is all irrelevant, because, unlike with humans, it is possible, in principle, at least, to arrange things so that a reset DOES set a computer back to an exact past state.

Ahhhhh. you're invoking magic. And you have a magic word to invoke it: "in principle". I'm talking "in reality", i.e. real computers that people have in their home and what is possible with them. Not imagined computers that don't exist. The computers you seem to believe in sound like the God I believe in, something humans imagine, not something that can be shown to exist in reality.

This is simple: either: "Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated." or it cannot.

How do I measure and restore the state of my processor caches at the exact moment I type: "?" And that's just for starters.

John Platko wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:
John, you are talking nonsemse, and evidently didn't follow the discussion on this thread between myself and Graham, or don't know much about computers. A computer can normally be reset to a particular exact state, by simply restarting it, or pressing the reset button. This does not require any magic.

My computer does not return to the exact same logical state every time I press the reset button. That is a fact. It is nonsense to say otherwise. When I pressed reset a couple of years ago it went to a state which is very different that the one that it will go to if I press reset today. And in fact, if I press reset several times today it will end up at different states every time. - for more than one reason (although there is an obvious big reason why this is so). And no magic is required.

My post responding to Graham's incorrect comments about what is possible to do on modern home computers is independent to your discussion with Graham. But if you really want to help him out, give some actual evidence to support his actual claim.

from

Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated.

This is all irrelevant, because, unlike with humans, it is possible, in principle, at least, to arrange things so that a reset DOES set a computer back to an exact past state.

Ahhhhh. you're invoking magic. And you have a magic word to invoke it: "in principle". I'm talking "in reality", i.e. real computers that people have in their home and what is possible with them. Not imagined computers that don't exist. The computers you seem to believe in sound like the God I believe in, something humans imagine, not something that can be shown to exist in reality.

This is simple: either: "Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated." or it cannot.

How do I measure and restore the state of my processor caches at the exact moment I type: "?" And that's just for starters.

You do not appear to know what you are talking about, because you seem, to think that a restore must be capable of resetting to ANY past state of the computer, which is simply wrong, and is irrelevant to the debate about the difference between a human and a robot.
PS, you might like to think about why you are also wrong to suggest that muy use of the phrase, "in principle" does NOT imply invocation of magic. You need to think more clearly about the topics in this thread, otherwise ity willnot be worth responding to you.

DavidMcC wrote:
You do not appear to know what you are talking about
...
it will not be worth responding to you.

Clearly he doesn't and it isn't.

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:

John Platko wrote:

My computer does not return to the exact same logical state every time I press the reset button. That is a fact. It is nonsense to say otherwise. When I pressed reset a couple of years ago it went to a state which is very different that the one that it will go to if I press reset today. And in fact, if I press reset several times today it will end up at different states every time. - for more than one reason (although there is an obvious big reason why this is so). And no magic is required.

My post responding to Graham's incorrect comments about what is possible to do on modern home computers is independent to your discussion with Graham. But if you really want to help him out, give some actual evidence to support his actual claim.

from

This is all irrelevant, because, unlike with humans, it is possible, in principle, at least, to arrange things so that a reset DOES set a computer back to an exact past state.

Ahhhhh. you're invoking magic. And you have a magic word to invoke it: "in principle". I'm talking "in reality", i.e. real computers that people have in their home and what is possible with them. Not imagined computers that don't exist. The computers you seem to believe in sound like the God I believe in, something humans imagine, not something that can be shown to exist in reality.

This is simple: either: "Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated." or it cannot.

How do I measure and restore the state of my processor caches at the exact moment I type: "?" And that's just for starters.

You do not appear to know what you are talking about, because you seem, to think that a restore must be capable of resetting to ANY past state of the computer, which is simply wrong, and is irrelevant to the debate about the difference between a human and a robot.

Now you're making assumptions about what I appear to think a restore must be capable of doing, in addition to what I know. I suggest you stick to what you think you know and don't make assumptions about what I know. I'm not the one who made the claim:

"Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated."

I'm the one who wants some evidence that claim is true. Show me how I can do that on my PC. Or failing that, someone could simply admit that they overstated the case.

And while you're at it, you might want to learn exactly what your computer reset button can and cannot do.

GrahamH wrote:

DavidMcC wrote:
You do not appear to know what you are talking about
...
it will not be worth responding to you.

Clearly he doesn't and it isn't.

All you have to do is come up with the evidence for your claim:

"Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated."

Show me the ICE, show me the JTAG solution. Show me how to connect a logic analyzer to every logic state on an intel core processor. Show us something!

Or simply admit you were talking about imaginary PCs and you were imagining what could be done to them.

GrahamH wrote:http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2604349.html#p2604288

What does that have to do with:

from

It is undeniably the case that all relevant states of digital computers can be measured, stored and re-loaded onto the hardware so that they return to the exact logic state for any number of precise re-runs in the same exact program conditions. Any input can be recorded and replayed.

I'm denying that the exact program conditions can be restored. And I'm double denying any input can be recorded and replayed to the same exact effect because there are practical limits on timing and synchronization afoot. Sure, if you talk about these sorts of things from idealized paradigms then all sorts of things are possible "in principle". Now I seem to recall you owing me a link to and ICE for my PC - how goes the search?

John Platko wrote:itions can be restored. And I'm double denying any input can be recorded and replayed to the same exact effect because there are practical limits on timing and synchronization afoot. Sure, if you talk about these sorts of things from idealized paradigms then all sorts of things are possible "in principle". Now I seem to recall you owing me a link to and ICE for my PC - how goes the search?

I'll just take a backup of that as it seems to summarise your bold and baseless claims. If you substantiate those can claims we might want to refer back to this, but I won't hold my breath.

I wonder how you manage to participate in this forum if you cannot repeatedly set your PC into defined states to repeat specific functions. Your posting here is testament to your error.

GrahamH wrote:

John Platko wrote:itions can be restored. And I'm double denying any input can be recorded and replayed to the same exact effect because there are practical limits on timing and synchronization afoot. Sure, if you talk about these sorts of things from idealized paradigms then all sorts of things are possible "in principle". Now I seem to recall you owing me a link to and ICE for my PC - how goes the search?

I'll just take a backup of that as it seems to summarise your bold and baseless claims. If you substantiate those can claims we might want to refer back to this, but I won't hold my breath.

First you substantiate your claims and then I'll take my turn. What ICE should I use to snapshot the state of my computer?

I wonder how you manage to participate in this forum if you cannot repeatedly set your PC into defined states to repeat specific functions. Your posting here is testament to your error.

Nice attempt at a goal post shift but that won't get you out of the hole your dug yourself into.

You said: "Everything about your computer can be measured, stored and reinstated."

I don't need to do anything like that to post on the forum. My computer is literally changing out from under me as I type, it's never the same, what with this update and that update, this virus and that malware. Yet here I am. Now where's that ICE? JTAG anyone?

John Platko wrote:
I don't need to do anything like that to post on the forum. My computer is literally changing out from under me as I type, it's never the same

It is the same at the functional level of your browser. From reset to memory and register loads it gets set to a particular state to reproduce the same function over and over. If that were not the case you would not be posting here.

GrahamH wrote:

John Platko wrote:
I don't need to do anything like that to post on the forum. My computer is literally changing out from under me as I type, it's never the same

It is the same at the functional level of your browser. From reset to memory and register loads it gets set to a particular state to reproduce the same function over and over. If that were not the case you would not be posting here.

"same" there's another word I don't think you know the meaning of - it's the same with your use of the word "everything." Sure, if you squint, it can appear the same, but even novice computer users notice that things change out from underneath them from time to time - so why don't you? And where's that ICE you seem to be imagining? Have you found it yet? Or perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what I can do with my JTAG port?

Maybe we should start at the beginning, create a thread in the design and engineering section of the forum, create some state machines with a few clock domain - maybe design a clock - I've been itching to do that around here - and I mean, like, really design a clock. Then you can learn about how these things that appear to be doing the "same" thing aren't always doing "everything" the "same". It just makes sense to get these ideas under your belt before you wax on and off about robots and such.