Free Will

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Free Will

#13061  Postby felltoearth » Feb 09, 2019 3:43 pm

bogdan9310 wrote:
romansh wrote:Agree to what exactly, that everything was made to deceive me?

Are you going to clear up some of the logical inconsistencies you provided above?


Are you telling me that when you were 3 years old, you made decisions? No, you just believe what you were told. That's what I mean. Deception is part of our lives, you deceive others, and you deceive yourself too. Look into self deception.


Mum and Dad were lizards, so yeah. Duh.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13062  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 09, 2019 3:47 pm

felltoearth wrote:
bogdan9310 wrote:
romansh wrote:Agree to what exactly, that everything was made to deceive me?

Are you going to clear up some of the logical inconsistencies you provided above?


Are you telling me that when you were 3 years old, you made decisions? No, you just believe what you were told. That's what I mean. Deception is part of our lives, you deceive others, and you deceive yourself too. Look into self deception.


Mum and Dad were lizards, so yeah. Duh.


Wait! You, too? There could be millions of us. Anthroptiles Anonymous!
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Amir Bagatelle
Posts: 28348
Age: 22
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13063  Postby romansh » Feb 09, 2019 4:55 pm

bogdan9310 wrote:
romansh wrote:Agree to what exactly, that everything was made to deceive me?

Are you going to clear up some of the logical inconsistencies you provided above?

Are you telling me that when you were 3 years old, you made decisions?

I am sure I made some decisions, whether or not filch a cookie (biscuit). What toys to play with. Surely this is obvious. But have I been deceived by everything since I was a child? You are not deceiving me now?
bogdan9310 wrote: No, you just believe what you were told. That's what I mean.

Yes I likely was quite gullible at the age of 3 … Cito might argue I still am. But believe it or not that is not what you said in your original post in this thread.
bogdan9310 wrote:Deception is part of our lives, you deceive others, and you deceive yourself too. Look into self deception.


Quite possibly ... but that is not ... Everything you learned since you were a child was made to deceive you.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2691

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13064  Postby bogdan9310 » Feb 09, 2019 6:59 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
bogdan9310 wrote:
romansh wrote:Agree to what exactly, that everything was made to deceive me?

Are you going to clear up some of the logical inconsistencies you provided above?


Are you telling me that when you were 3 years old, you made decisions? No, you just believe what you were told. That's what I mean. Deception is part of our lives, you deceive others, and you deceive yourself too. Look into self deception.


Mum and Dad were lizards, so yeah. Duh.


Wait! You, too? There could be millions of us. Anthroptiles Anonymous!


I am in the wrong place. :what:
User avatar
bogdan9310
 
Name: Bogdan Bacosca
Posts: 69
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13065  Postby bogdan9310 » Feb 09, 2019 7:01 pm

romansh wrote:
bogdan9310 wrote:
romansh wrote:Agree to what exactly, that everything was made to deceive me?

Are you going to clear up some of the logical inconsistencies you provided above?

Are you telling me that when you were 3 years old, you made decisions?

I am sure I made some decisions, whether or not filch a cookie (biscuit). What toys to play with. Surely this is obvious. But have I been deceived by everything since I was a child? You are not deceiving me now?
bogdan9310 wrote: No, you just believe what you were told. That's what I mean.

Yes I likely was quite gullible at the age of 3 … Cito might argue I still am. But believe it or not that is not what you said in your original post in this thread.
bogdan9310 wrote:Deception is part of our lives, you deceive others, and you deceive yourself too. Look into self deception.


Quite possibly ... but that is not ... Everything you learned since you were a child was made to deceive you.


I agree I exaggerated a little bit, but to get attention. Some people might be like that, not you.
User avatar
bogdan9310
 
Name: Bogdan Bacosca
Posts: 69
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13066  Postby romansh » Feb 09, 2019 7:18 pm

bogdan9310 wrote:
I agree I exaggerated a little bit, but to get attention. Some people might be like that, not you.


OK we did have a bit of archibald's overegging here, fair enough. :)
So succinctly, what is your position?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2691

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13067  Postby bogdan9310 » Feb 18, 2019 5:35 pm

romansh wrote:
bogdan9310 wrote:
I agree I exaggerated a little bit, but to get attention. Some people might be like that, not you.


OK we did have a bit of archibald's overegging here, fair enough. :)
So succinctly, what is your position?


"Every idea has a single source that can be traced back and changed, this is called inception, and it’s a concept. If your ideas have a single source, then it should be easy to change your thinking, you might ask yourself. Well, we need to first understand what is an idea. The definition of an idea is a formulated thought, the central meaning of all your actions. It controls everything you do. Now, we cannot do that if our scientists don’t know what is thought.

Science is nothing more than the gradual progress and discoveries based on previous work, and we can describe the source of our current understanding of science, as the product of a collective mind of scientists working together, but in different timelines. Albert Einstein did not come up with relativity from scratch, the concept of time was already there. Isaac Newton based his absolute space and time theory on top of Johannes Kepler’s work, and so on.

Imagine that you think to a line, and your mind starts with one thought (Kepler), and one thought (Newton), leads to another (Einstein) thought, until you build a structure. That structure is called a thought chain, and it leads you to reach an idea or a vision. These ideas or visions can change, and you could get new ones. You could prove the old ones to be false, and you could have a mental revolution, similar to every scientific revolution."
User avatar
bogdan9310
 
Name: Bogdan Bacosca
Posts: 69
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13068  Postby romansh » Feb 18, 2019 7:54 pm

bogdan9310 wrote: "Every idea has a single source that can be traced back and changed, this is called inception, and it’s a concept. If your ideas have a single source, then it should be easy to change your thinking, you might ask yourself. Well, we need to first understand what is an idea. The definition of an idea is a formulated thought, the central meaning of all your actions. It controls everything you do. Now, we cannot do that if our scientists don’t know what is thought.

If by single source you mean the big bang, the universe or some such then OK. If you mean ideas control my actions then I am doubtful. For example reflex actions are not controlled by thought. I am frankly skeptical that ideas do anything per se. They may very well be a confabulation.

bogdan9310 wrote:Science is nothing more than the gradual progress and discoveries based on previous work, and we can describe the source of our current understanding of science, as the product of a collective mind of scientists working together, but in different timelines. Albert Einstein did not come up with relativity from scratch, the concept of time was already there. Isaac Newton based his absolute space and time theory on top of Johannes Kepler’s work, and so on.

Yes science is a process. Yes scientists use other people's ideas … Maxwell's equations and Lorentz transformations come to mind as classic examples. I am not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand.

bogdan9310 wrote: Imagine that you think to a line, and your mind starts with one thought (Kepler), and one thought (Newton), leads to another (Einstein) thought, until you build a structure. That structure is called a thought chain, and it leads you to reach an idea or a vision. These ideas or visions can change, and you could get new ones. You could prove the old ones to be false, and you could have a mental revolution, similar to every scientific revolution."


I am no further ahead on your thoughts regarding free will. Please employ your chain.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2691

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13069  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 28, 2019 2:14 pm

People need to be held responsible for our actions, even by ourselves, even though ULTIMATELY we probably are not. I've probably said that before a gazillion times but just had to visit this thread to post this chunky little number:

Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
User avatar
Keep It Real
 
Posts: 8355
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13070  Postby felltoearth » Mar 28, 2019 2:22 pm

Nooooooooooo please let this thread die its natural death!
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13071  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 28, 2019 2:30 pm

Soz, got a bit overexcited 'cos there's a DnB tune called Illusion of Choice with cool lyrics.
Arthur : All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world. Slartibartfast : No, that's perfectly normal paranoia.
User avatar
Keep It Real
 
Posts: 8355
Age: 38
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13072  Postby romansh » Mar 28, 2019 10:45 pm

felltoearth wrote:Nooooooooooo please let this thread die its natural death!

For what reason do you think it should die. You don't have to read it do you?

If something does not interest me I don't read it. I don't see the problem.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2691

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13073  Postby GrahamH » Mar 29, 2019 3:31 pm

romansh wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Nooooooooooo please let this thread die its natural death!

For what reason do you think it should die. You don't have to read it do you?

If something does not interest me I don't read it. I don't see the problem.


Are you suggesting that people can just choose not to respond to forum posts? :naughty2:
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 19754

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13074  Postby felltoearth » Mar 29, 2019 3:52 pm

romansh wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Nooooooooooo please let this thread die its natural death!

For what reason do you think it should die. You don't have to read it do you?

If something does not interest me I don't read it. I don't see the problem.

I am actually interested in the free will debate, but it has pretty much spun itself out here into dead horse territory. If someone wishes to bring up anything that hasn’t already been beaten to death, I’m open and interested, however I’m not holding my breath.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13075  Postby jamest » Mar 30, 2019 1:06 am

felltoearth wrote:
romansh wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Nooooooooooo please let this thread die its natural death!

For what reason do you think it should die. You don't have to read it do you?

If something does not interest me I don't read it. I don't see the problem.

I am actually interested in the free will debate, but it has pretty much spun itself out here into dead horse territory. If someone wishes to bring up anything that hasn’t already been beaten to death, I’m open and interested, however I’m not holding my breath.

You made that sound as though 'you' are in complete control of your actions here. :whistle:
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17737
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13076  Postby felltoearth » Mar 30, 2019 2:07 am

Never claimed I was.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13077  Postby jamest » Mar 30, 2019 2:15 am

Well you stated that 'you' were open and interested and implied that you got to decide what was worthy of being acceptable, notwithstanding the fact that all you'd read so far was a bunch of shit.

In fact, you kinda implied that you were the absolute authority on the matter, which would be an argument for free will in itself.

So either retract and apologise or...
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17737
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13078  Postby felltoearth » Mar 30, 2019 2:17 am

I said nothing of the sort. Quit putting words in my mouth.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13079  Postby jamest » Mar 30, 2019 2:33 am

felltoearth wrote:I said nothing of the sort. Quit putting words in my mouth.

Really?
Well here's the bit where you stated that you were open and interested:
felltoearth wrote:
I’m open and interested

And here's the bits where you state that all arguments thus far were fruitless and that you were worthy of deciding so:
felltoearth wrote:it has pretty much spun itself out here into dead horse territory. If someone wishes to bring up anything that hasn’t already been beaten to death, I’m open and interested, however I’m not holding my breath.

In my estimation, this amounts to an individual claiming complete control of their thoughts thus far upon the/any matter.

I might just use you as a proof for my next argument for free will. I'd ask for your permission, but you will be endorsing my proof either way as 'you' will be the authority behind your response regardless. ;)
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 17737
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13080  Postby felltoearth » Mar 30, 2019 2:36 am

The comment was in the context of personal interest in the thread not whether I am controlling others posting behaviour. I have no idea how or why you are reading such stupidity into it.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 11378
Age: 51

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 3 guests