Free Will

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Free Will

#13681  Postby Destroyer » Dec 22, 2019 1:47 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
Ayn Marx wrote:I find it somewhat amazing these discussion have continued for centuries
There is not now and almost never has been any discussion about whether or not there is free will, demonstrably, we have free will.
The questions about free will that philosophers discuss are mainly these: could there be free will in a determined world? which, if any, notion of free will suffices for moral/legal responsibility? which theory of free will is correct/best?


No. Demonstrably we do not have free will. The issue is really whether or not the universe is deterministic. Localised mass clearly follow deterministic rules, whereas quantum particles do not. It is only because quantum particles are fundamental that logical assumptions are made about the universe being indeterminate - and therefore subject to free will. However, try telling that to localised mass and the fact that, demonstrably, it is deterministic - therefore no free will.


Demonstrably there are degrees of determinism, clockwork, logic circuits and billard balls exemplifying the concept, but it's not possible to demonstrate hard determinism as a universal rule nor can it be shown in human behaviour.

But we cannot demonstrate free will in the counter argument. We simply cannot account for all factors in a decision to say that the precise fine-grained conditions did not determine the result.

The quey question is whether our "will" is in control or functions as function of conditions and laws. An AI system can be said to make choices, it could "demonstrate free will" in the naïve "See, I raise my arm because I choose to" sense) but we know it functions deterministically. Given exactly the same conditions it will make the same choice every time.


I have said that the realm of localised mass is clearly deterministic. Whereas the quantum is not. I am not interested in arguing for or against free will. I know exactly where I stand but I have no desire to prolong this thread. I have basically told ughaibu that his claim that we demonstrably have free will is false because determinism can be argued on the basis of localised mass.
Destroyer
 
Name: Patrick Mills
Posts: 1838
Age: 61
Male

Country: England
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13682  Postby scott1328 » Dec 22, 2019 3:20 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
Ayn Marx wrote:I find it somewhat amazing these discussion have continued for centuries
There is not now and almost never has been any discussion about whether or not there is free will, demonstrably, we have free will.
The questions about free will that philosophers discuss are mainly these: could there be free will in a determined world? which, if any, notion of free will suffices for moral/legal responsibility? which theory of free will is correct/best?


No. Demonstrably we do not have free will. The issue is really whether or not the universe is deterministic. Localised mass clearly follow deterministic rules, whereas quantum particles do not. It is only because quantum particles are fundamental that logical assumptions are made about the universe being indeterminate - and therefore subject to free will. However, try telling that to localised mass and the fact that, demonstrably, it is deterministic - therefore no free will.


Demonstrably there are degrees of determinism, clockwork, logic circuits and billard balls exemplifying the concept, but it's not possible to demonstrate hard determinism as a universal rule nor can it be shown in human behaviour.

But we cannot demonstrate free will in the counter argument. We simply cannot account for all factors in a decision to say that the precise fine-grained conditions did not determine the result.

The quey question is whether our "will" is in control or functions as function of conditions and laws. An AI system can be said to make choices, it could "demonstrate free will" in the naïve "See, I raise my arm because I choose to" sense) but we know it functions deterministically. Given exactly the same conditions it will make the same choice every time.
it can never be the case, in this reality, that “exactly the same conditions” ever occurs, the best you can say is “sufficiently similar”.
User avatar
scott1328
 
Name: Some call me... Tim
Posts: 8687
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13683  Postby GrahamH » Dec 22, 2019 5:29 pm

scott1328 wrote:it can never be the case, in this reality, that “exactly the same conditions” ever occurs, the best you can say is “sufficiently similar”.


Of course this isn't practical, its hypothetical, it's metaphysical and untestable. Hence we can't demonstrate libertarian notions of free will.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20399

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13684  Postby Ayn Marx » Apr 30, 2020 2:52 am

"Hence we can't demonstrate libertarian notions of free will.?”
Which tends to imply you could not have avoided making such a claim, you were predestined to do so.
How then could you have any meaninful method of determining it’s validity?
User avatar
Ayn Marx
 
Name: Dissily Mordentroge
Posts: 59

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13685  Postby GrahamH » Apr 30, 2020 9:17 am

Ayn Marx wrote:"Hence we can't demonstrate libertarian notions of free will.?”
Which tends to imply you could not have avoided making such a claim, you were predestined to do so.
How then could you have any meaninful method of determining it’s validity?


You have that backward. The challenge is for the free will advocate to demonstrate they have free will.

If prior causes lead you to test a proposition with evidence of course you can do so. To be meaningful you follow the outcome of the test. It would be meaningless to choose a result as an act of will contrary to the fact of the matter.

And you could start with simply demonstrating to your self that your own thoughts really have some independence from what came before them. Try it. I think if you approach that honestly you should see the problem. You won't know how or why you have particular thoughts. To the very limited extent that you might give an account of it you will be referencing antecedent events that have "made you who you are" and your events that have created your present situation.
Can you do better than prior causes , reasons and don't knows?
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20399

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13686  Postby romansh » Apr 30, 2020 7:02 pm

Ayn Marx wrote: "ence we can't demonstrate libertarian notions of free will.?”"
Which tends to imply you could not have avoided making such a claim, you were predestined to do so.

The predestined bit depends on the fundamental behavior of the universe Ayn. I certainly don't know if quantum phenomena are predestined. But if it is more a crap shoot then making claims is a bit dodgy … philosophically speaking. Having said that if things are not determined then making claims is also dodgy.
Ayn Marx wrote:How then could you have any meaninful method of determining it’s validity?

Quite … that is why I am forced to be agnostic on the subject, but those claiming to have free will [libertarian] have to (or not) come up with some sort of rational argument to help convince me to believe in the concept of free will.

Do you have one?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 2752

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13687  Postby jamest » May 01, 2020 1:54 am

The difference between me/you and a 'predestined' robotic machine, should be fucking obvious.

Differences/distinctions between machines/robots of the same ilk are barely discernible wrt their outputs, which are more-or-less identical.

'Humans' are of the same ilk, yet their output is utterly unpredictable and certainly unexplainable beyond a philosophy which does not embrace free will as a basis thereof.

The people here arguing against free will are doing so because they are arguing against theism. What other
motive could they have? Indeed, in a world devoid of free will, why are they even here~?!!! Regardless, they want us to believe that THEY themselves - who have no free will, by logical default wrt their position, are capable of arguing the point. That's fucking funny, because if you're a fuckin' robot then whatever comes out of your mouth is a fart that fundamentally no individual can control.

So, the likes of Graham are FARTING that there is no free will. Graham can't argue otherwise because everything he says is a FART by default of his own argument.

His own argument essentially boils-down to the fact that he farts words beyond his control.

Verbal diarrhoea, in other words. :lol:


The bottom-line is that it is impossible to have a rational debate about the concept of free will with beings such as Graham, because he cannot think for himself by his own admission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The argument for free will WINS by default, because it DEMANDS considered thought, not farts!!!!!! :nono:
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18495
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13688  Postby Hermit » May 01, 2020 2:16 am

jamest wrote:The argument for free will WINS by default, because it DEMANDS considered thought, not farts!!!!!! :nono:

You just had to say that, didn't you? :tongue:
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 4102
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13689  Postby felltoearth » May 01, 2020 3:14 am

jamest wrote:The difference between me/you and a 'predestined' robotic machine, should be fucking obvious.

Differences/distinctions between machines/robots of the same ilk are barely discernible wrt their outputs, which are more-or-less identical.

'Humans' are of the same ilk, yet their output is utterly unpredictable and certainly unexplainable beyond a philosophy which does not embrace free will as a basis thereof.

The people here arguing against free will are doing so because they are arguing against theism. What other
motive could they have? Indeed, in a world devoid of free will, why are they even here~?!!! Regardless, they want us to believe that THEY themselves - who have no free will, by logical default wrt their position, are capable of arguing the point. That's fucking funny, because if you're a fuckin' robot then whatever comes out of your mouth is a fart that fundamentally no individual can control.

So, the likes of Graham are FARTING that there is no free will. Graham can't argue otherwise because everything he says is a FART by default of his own argument.

His own argument essentially boils-down to the fact that he farts words beyond his control.

Verbal diarrhoea, in other words. :lol:


The bottom-line is that it is impossible to have a rational debate about the concept of free will with beings such as Graham, because he cannot think for himself by his own admission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The argument for free will WINS by default, because it DEMANDS considered thought, not farts!!!!!! :nono:

If you have been paying any attention at all in this thread, you would realize just how sophomoric your take is here.


______________________________________
Sent to somewhere using a shitty app. Sorry for the tags and/or dupe posts.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 13815
Age: 53

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13690  Postby jamest » May 01, 2020 3:41 am

felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:The difference between me/you and a 'predestined' robotic machine, should be fucking obvious.

Differences/distinctions between machines/robots of the same ilk are barely discernible wrt their outputs, which are more-or-less identical.

'Humans' are of the same ilk, yet their output is utterly unpredictable and certainly unexplainable beyond a philosophy which does not embrace free will as a basis thereof.

The people here arguing against free will are doing so because they are arguing against theism. What other
motive could they have? Indeed, in a world devoid of free will, why are they even here~?!!! Regardless, they want us to believe that THEY themselves - who have no free will, by logical default wrt their position, are capable of arguing the point. That's fucking funny, because if you're a fuckin' robot then whatever comes out of your mouth is a fart that fundamentally no individual can control.

So, the likes of Graham are FARTING that there is no free will. Graham can't argue otherwise because everything he says is a FART by default of his own argument.

His own argument essentially boils-down to the fact that he farts words beyond his control.

Verbal diarrhoea, in other words. :lol:


The bottom-line is that it is impossible to have a rational debate about the concept of free will with beings such as Graham, because he cannot think for himself by his own admission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The argument for free will WINS by default, because it DEMANDS considered thought, not farts!!!!!! :nono:

If you have been paying any attention at all in this thread, you would realize just how sophomoric your take is here.


______________________________________
Sent to somewhere using a shitty app. Sorry for the tags and/or dupe posts.

I've posted in this thread many times and I'm not naive on such matters, but the thought that "we're robots" very much is, because it basically equates any noise emitted from your mouth as an uncontrollable fart. FACT.

Nobody here is in a position to argue against me if they're telling me that they have no control over their speech, as if they do then they're in no position to argue that their speech does not amount to a fart.

Make your fucking minds up. Either you're farting your words, or else are in control of them.

Either way, I win the free will argument. Therefore, God. Therefore, buy my robes and sandals. Due to the failing economy, there will be no discount whatsoever. Indeed, my prices have gone up 200%. :grin:
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18495
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13691  Postby Cito di Pense » May 01, 2020 4:47 am

jamest wrote:Nobody here is in a position to argue against me


As soon as somebody brings up determinism, a free will guru is bound to show up proclaiming free will. Think about it, jamest, how am I obliged to buy sandals and robes for the cause of free will from somebody who displays as many blatant self-control issues as are manifested in so many of your posts?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Placebo Domingo
Posts: 29397
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13692  Postby GrahamH » May 01, 2020 6:10 am

jamest wrote:The difference between me/you and a 'predestined' robotic machine, should be fucking obvious.

Differences/distinctions between machines/robots of the same ilk are barely discernible wrt their outputs, which are more-or-less identical.

'Humans' are of the same ilk, yet their output is utterly unpredictable and certainly unexplainable beyond a philosophy which does not embrace free will as a basis thereof.


Your posts here are more predictable than my robot vacuum cleaner.

Yet again you have just evded the challenge to explain how anyone can demonstrate to themselves that any thought/willing that comes to mind is a product of free will mind magic rather than neurobiological processes in the brain and events in the world.

You haven't even attempted to justify the nonsense notion that that it is only detachment from the physical world that gives anything "meaning".

Be honest jamest, you are compelled to defend sprit mind free will or abandon your belief in possessing divine creative superpowers and you cherished "philosophy". If you can't demonstrate superpowers it's near certain that you don't have superpowers.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20399

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13693  Postby jamest » May 02, 2020 3:25 am

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:The difference between me/you and a 'predestined' robotic machine, should be fucking obvious.

Differences/distinctions between machines/robots of the same ilk are barely discernible wrt their outputs, which are more-or-less identical.

'Humans' are of the same ilk, yet their output is utterly unpredictable and certainly unexplainable beyond a philosophy which does not embrace free will as a basis thereof.


Your posts here are more predictable than my robot vacuum cleaner.

I beg to differ, notwithstanding the fact that YOU are the most robotic 'human' I've encountered on this forum. You remind me of Spock, though obviously not as bright.

Yet again you have just evded the challenge to explain how anyone can demonstrate to themselves that any thought/willing that comes to mind is a product of free will mind magic rather than neurobiological processes in the brain and events in the world.

I've given my thoughts on this matter in the past, which amount to 'I' am more than my consciousness of the world. Please consider an analogy that might help to explain my position:

You're the inventor of the telescope. You look through it for the first time and am awed to the extent that you forget yourself and what you have invented, for a limited time, because you are lost within the wondrous sights all around you.

For me, world consciousness is akin to God looking through the telescope of human eyes/experience. Further, world consciousness is God lost in the awe of it all, even for a limited time.

The potential exists, however, for YOU to wake up to the fact that you are more than what you see/experience. THEN, you'll understand why you have free will.

You haven't even attempted to justify the nonsense notion that that it is only detachment from the physical world that gives anything "meaning".

There is no physical world, there is only the report of one through one's 'telescope'.

Be honest jamest, you are compelled to defend sprit mind free will or abandon your belief in possessing divine creative superpowers and you cherished "philosophy". If you can't demonstrate superpowers it's near certain that you don't have superpowers.

This is all about mustard seeds, Graham.

I'm not even sure what 'miracle' would ABSOLUTELY convince you, but be my guest.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18495
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13694  Postby jamest » May 02, 2020 3:43 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
jamest wrote:Nobody here is in a position to argue against me


As soon as somebody brings up determinism, a free will guru is bound to show up proclaiming free will. Think about it, jamest, how am I obliged to buy sandals and robes for the cause of free will from somebody who displays as many blatant self-control issues as are manifested in so many of your posts?

What you see manifested in my posts is what you CHOOSE to see manifested in my posts, based upon your ill-greased Truth Mill.

I'm not here presenting myself as the 2nd coming, and I know I can be a bit of a tosser, but for sure my philosophy is the most accurate to the truth that has ever been presented in human history. You can call me any cunt you wish, and you might be right in some respects, but NOTHING about 'me' will ever detract from that truth.

Believe me when I say that I know that this is a major burden, for it is. Do I want to be the guy who knows everything worth knowing, knowing that the rest of you are just going to take the piss and/or want to kill me? Of course not. Because NOBODY wants to believe me, even the theists.

I have a duty to 'humanity' to explain myself, so I have. When death comes, I'll have done my duty. I cannot do anything more.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
jamest
 
Posts: 18495
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13695  Postby Hermit » May 02, 2020 7:37 am

jamest wrote:Do I want to be the guy who knows everything worth knowing..?

Just to clarify: Are you of the opinion that you know everything worth knowing?
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Posts: 4102
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Free Will

#13696  Postby GrahamH » May 03, 2020 9:06 am

jamest wrote:
I'm not even sure what 'miracle' would ABSOLUTELY convince you, but be my guest.


No need for 'miracles', just show a way for me (one) to prove to oneself that a thought / willing is generated by one's own subjective consciousness with clear independence from antecedent vents and circumstances. I can't think of any way to do that. Call it a miracle if you like. But if you can't do that how can you defend free will or immaterial mind?

Of course your philosophy denies the possibility of jamest as a free will agent. The only agency that could pertain there is in the supposed creative OneMind which is self-blind and divorces creative agency from experience. So you have no possibility of meeting the challenge and holding to your idealism. Your conscious thoughts are not your own creations
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20399

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13697  Postby GrahamH » May 03, 2020 9:16 am

jamest wrote:
Believe me when I say that I know that this is a major burden, for it is. Do I want to be the guy who knows everything worth knowing, knowing that the rest of you are just going to take the piss and/or want to kill me? Of course not. Because NOBODY wants to believe me, even the theists.

I have a duty to 'humanity' to explain myself, so I have. When death comes, I'll have done my duty. I cannot do anything more.


Nobody wants to kill you jamest.

You have no 'duty to humanity'by your own philosophy - you are merely a bit part in a fiction.

If you have any duty to humanity it is to be human, to be grounded in this life rather than dreaming of escaping it or telling others they are puppets.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20399

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13698  Postby Fallible » May 03, 2020 10:58 am

jamest wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
jamest wrote:Nobody here is in a position to argue against me


As soon as somebody brings up determinism, a free will guru is bound to show up proclaiming free will. Think about it, jamest, how am I obliged to buy sandals and robes for the cause of free will from somebody who displays as many blatant self-control issues as are manifested in so many of your posts?

What you see manifested in my posts is what you CHOOSE to see manifested in my posts, based upon your ill-greased Truth Mill.

I'm not here presenting myself as the 2nd coming, and I know I can be a bit of a tosser, but for sure my philosophy is the most accurate to the truth that has ever been presented in human history. You can call me any cunt you wish, and you might be right in some respects, but NOTHING about 'me' will ever detract from that truth.

Believe me when I say that I know that this is a major burden, for it is. Do I want to be the guy who knows everything worth knowing, knowing that the rest of you are just going to take the piss and/or want to kill me? Of course not. Because NOBODY wants to believe me, even the theists.

I have a duty to 'humanity' to explain myself, so I have. When death comes, I'll have done my duty. I cannot do anything more.


:tehe:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13699  Postby LucidFlight » May 03, 2020 11:51 am

That reminds me of something Tom Cruise once said.

"Being a scientologist, when you drive past an accident, it's not like anyone else. As you drive past, you know you have to do something about it because you know you're the only one who can really help."



I guess it comes down to this: some people are put in this world for a purpose and no amount of free will is going to stop them from carrying out that purpose. In fact, it is the very free nature of being able to act according to one's God-given purpose that gives us the ability to carry out that purpose, through the power of free will.
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
 
Name: Kento
Posts: 10801
Male

Country: UK/US/AU/SG
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#13700  Postby felltoearth » May 03, 2020 3:08 pm

jamest wrote:
Because NOBODY wants to believe me, even the theists.


It’s not that I don’t want to believe you, it’s because I have no good reason to. In all your time here your, in all your eviscerated and abandoned threads that devolve quickly into sophomoric and narcissistic rants, you have presented no evidence for your assertions (entirely ignorant of any science on the subject at hand) and you arguments are incoherent in levels relative to the amount of drinking you have done that evening.

Your insecurity in your ignorance is always on display the in your next post following the OP with the level of hubris rising in every subsequent one. No, you wouldn’t want to know everything there is to know because deep down you know that knowledge would show how utterly stupid your arguments are here and the depths of your incompetence in your attempts at philosophy.

That you can’t do otherwise in your behaviour in this forum is the best evidence for the non-existence of Free Will that I can muster.
Last edited by felltoearth on May 03, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 13815
Age: 53

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 9 guests