Free Will

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Re: Free Will

#13681  Postby Destroyer » Dec 22, 2019 1:47 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
Ayn Marx wrote:I find it somewhat amazing these discussion have continued for centuries
There is not now and almost never has been any discussion about whether or not there is free will, demonstrably, we have free will.
The questions about free will that philosophers discuss are mainly these: could there be free will in a determined world? which, if any, notion of free will suffices for moral/legal responsibility? which theory of free will is correct/best?


No. Demonstrably we do not have free will. The issue is really whether or not the universe is deterministic. Localised mass clearly follow deterministic rules, whereas quantum particles do not. It is only because quantum particles are fundamental that logical assumptions are made about the universe being indeterminate - and therefore subject to free will. However, try telling that to localised mass and the fact that, demonstrably, it is deterministic - therefore no free will.


Demonstrably there are degrees of determinism, clockwork, logic circuits and billard balls exemplifying the concept, but it's not possible to demonstrate hard determinism as a universal rule nor can it be shown in human behaviour.

But we cannot demonstrate free will in the counter argument. We simply cannot account for all factors in a decision to say that the precise fine-grained conditions did not determine the result.

The quey question is whether our "will" is in control or functions as function of conditions and laws. An AI system can be said to make choices, it could "demonstrate free will" in the naïve "See, I raise my arm because I choose to" sense) but we know it functions deterministically. Given exactly the same conditions it will make the same choice every time.


I have said that the realm of localised mass is clearly deterministic. Whereas the quantum is not. I am not interested in arguing for or against free will. I know exactly where I stand but I have no desire to prolong this thread. I have basically told ughaibu that his claim that we demonstrably have free will is false because determinism can be argued on the basis of localised mass.
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Re: Free Will

#13682  Postby scott1328 » Dec 22, 2019 3:20 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
Ayn Marx wrote:I find it somewhat amazing these discussion have continued for centuries
There is not now and almost never has been any discussion about whether or not there is free will, demonstrably, we have free will.
The questions about free will that philosophers discuss are mainly these: could there be free will in a determined world? which, if any, notion of free will suffices for moral/legal responsibility? which theory of free will is correct/best?


No. Demonstrably we do not have free will. The issue is really whether or not the universe is deterministic. Localised mass clearly follow deterministic rules, whereas quantum particles do not. It is only because quantum particles are fundamental that logical assumptions are made about the universe being indeterminate - and therefore subject to free will. However, try telling that to localised mass and the fact that, demonstrably, it is deterministic - therefore no free will.


Demonstrably there are degrees of determinism, clockwork, logic circuits and billard balls exemplifying the concept, but it's not possible to demonstrate hard determinism as a universal rule nor can it be shown in human behaviour.

But we cannot demonstrate free will in the counter argument. We simply cannot account for all factors in a decision to say that the precise fine-grained conditions did not determine the result.

The quey question is whether our "will" is in control or functions as function of conditions and laws. An AI system can be said to make choices, it could "demonstrate free will" in the naïve "See, I raise my arm because I choose to" sense) but we know it functions deterministically. Given exactly the same conditions it will make the same choice every time.
it can never be the case, in this reality, that “exactly the same conditions” ever occurs, the best you can say is “sufficiently similar”.
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Re: Free Will

#13683  Postby GrahamH » Dec 22, 2019 5:29 pm

scott1328 wrote:it can never be the case, in this reality, that “exactly the same conditions” ever occurs, the best you can say is “sufficiently similar”.


Of course this isn't practical, its hypothetical, it's metaphysical and untestable. Hence we can't demonstrate libertarian notions of free will.
Why do you think that?
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