Free Will

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Re: Free Will

#13941  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 11, 2022 8:07 am

Spearthrower wrote:Theory of Mind is the capacity to understand other people by ascribing mental states to them.





:naughty2:



I'm still trying to understand why Bob hid the apple in the oven instead of in the toilet tank. Not to cotyledon question, but, who would look there for an apple? This is a peel to the consequences, of cores. The other stuff is not so easily pommed off on me.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#13942  Postby hackenslash » Apr 11, 2022 8:55 am

Very pithily expressed.
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Re: Free Will

#13943  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 11, 2022 9:52 am

zoon wrote:I am arguing that so far the technology of predicting humans is far below the level needed, for example, for encouraging or persuading a group of people to cooperate on some project.


The amount of information adequate to predict how a single individual will respond to 'encouragement' or 'persuasion' is not insurmountable. All you have to do is make them an offer they can't refuse. That's the kind of modeling the Russians used in order to predict that Zelensky would flee Ukraine.

zoon wrote:You have been asking me for experiments which demonstrate that we use Theory of Mind when we predict others, and I’ve admittedly failed to find any such experiments.

My counter-claim is that the reason there have been no experiments to demonstrate our use of Theory of Mind is that it’s so blatantly obvious to any normal person that experiments would be pointless.


So, does this mean that the piles of happy horseshit are going to diminish in size?

zoon wrote:
Each of those papers has an opening statement to the effect that the “ability to interpret, predict, and explain the actions of others in terms of underlying mental states is theory of mind (ToM).”


Apparently not. What we will continue to get is opening statements of articles declaring how theory of mind is described or defined, and not whether it predicts anything. I'll make a humble prediction, here, and it is that the piles of happy horseshit will not diminish in size.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#13944  Postby hackenslash » Apr 11, 2022 10:20 am

Any sufficiently advanced woo is indistinguishable from science.

ETA: It just occurred to me that a meme I made for something else is relevant here:

Image

It's the sort of flim-flam we see from armchair filosofeezers on their pet metaphysics. A story need only be plausible, and that can be achieved by couching it in technical-sounding jargon and ISBN numbers referring to who said what and when about their pet metaphysics.

It's the usual cargo cult apologetic in a slightly less repugnant context.
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Re: Free Will

#13945  Postby newolder » Apr 11, 2022 11:52 am

From post 13755,
zoon wrote:...

So far, Theory of Mind predicts people more effectively than science, but neuroscience is advancing rapidly.


There is no reference to, or requirement of Theory of Mind in the following example which shows "science" is more effective than "people". Analysis of human reaction times helps design and produce science & technology to beat humans at the game of Rock Paper Scissors (and it made a Mainstream Media story 9 years ago).


It's easy to trivialise this and say, "b...b..but there is "no mind" playing the game opposite the human", but that's just what the robot overlords want you to think. Mwa-ha-ha :picard:
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Free Will

#13946  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 11, 2022 1:33 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
I'm still trying to understand why Bob hid the apple in the oven instead of in the toilet tank. Not to cotyledon question, but, who would look there for an apple? This is a peel to the consequences, of cores. The other stuff is not so easily pommed off on me.



I think this is an example of Theory of Rind.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
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