Free Will

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Re: Free Will

#4581  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 12:51 pm

Go on then, show me how you establish the reality of the external world and the reality of gravity but do not, thereby, establish the reality of free will.
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Re: Free Will

#4582  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 12:53 pm

Gosh. Fenrir's post 4558 has come true!
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
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Re: Free Will

#4583  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 12:55 pm

You are definitely mixed up about one thing, which is the onus that is on you, not me. I am not claiming that there is or isn't free will, you are. I don't have to show you anything. You on the other hand, need to show me, well at least you do if you want to advance your claim. Which, thanks to those songs, you have so far failed to do. Quite the opposite. By posting those songs you have instead demonstrated that you have reacted to my posts.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
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Re: Free Will

#4584  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 12:58 pm

archibald wrote:the onus that is on you, not me
It has been established that you are not a rational being. You are a denialist and you are a refusalist, in short, you are irrelevant.
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Re: Free Will

#4585  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:00 pm

ughaibu wrote:
archibald wrote:the onus that is on you, not me
It has been established that you are not a rational being. You are a denialist and you are a refusalist, in short, you are irrelevant.


Thanks. Unfortunately, that's yet another post that you would not have made if I hadn't posted anything beforehand.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
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Re: Free Will

#4586  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:03 pm

Sheesh. This is really going quite badly for you.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
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Re: Free Will

#4587  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 1:04 pm

archibald wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
archibald wrote:the onus that is on you, not me
It has been established that you are not a rational being. You are a denialist and you are a refusalist, in short, you are irrelevant.
Thanks. Unfortunately, that's yet another post that you would not have made if I hadn't posted anything beforehand.
So, what's the control?
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Re: Free Will

#4588  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 1:04 pm

ughaibu wrote:Go on then, show me how you establish the reality of the external world and the reality of gravity but do not, thereby, establish the reality of free will.

WTF?

Are you suggesting that dropping an apple establishes free will?

Maybe you think "establishing the reality of the external world" is another of those trivially easy philosophical puzzles that has been running for centuries just because most philosophers are not as smart as you and Dr Johnson.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4589  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:09 pm

ughaibu wrote:So, what's the control?

What do you mean by control?
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
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Re: Free Will

#4590  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 1:15 pm

archibald wrote:
ughaibu wrote:So, what's the control?

What do you mean by control?

Jesus fucking christ. Educate yourself!
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Re: Free Will

#4591  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:21 pm

GrahamH wrote:
ughaibu wrote:Go on then, show me how you establish the reality of the external world and the reality of gravity but do not, thereby, establish the reality of free will.

WTF?

Are you suggesting that dropping an apple establishes free will?

Maybe you think "establishing the reality of the external world" is another of those trivially easy philosophical puzzles that has been running for centuries just because most philosophers are not as smart as you and Dr Johnson.


As far as I can tell, you don't have to go as deep as that. It seems to be an appeal to obviousness. Just as gravity is obvious, so is free will, because both can be observed to happen.

Unfortunately, recent science does not back this up and you only, it seems, have to look closely enough.

In one of the experiments I linked to, the researcher found that the brain makes a decision before (up to 7 seconds before) the brain's owner becomes aware of it, to the extent that the researchers can predict, significantly above chance, what the brain's owner will do before he or she either does it or is conscious of having decided to do it.

That appears to undermine the idea of free will, and I would love to hear how it does not.
Last edited by archibald on Nov 29, 2016 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4592  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:22 pm

ughaibu wrote:
archibald wrote:
ughaibu wrote:So, what's the control?

What do you mean by control?

Jesus fucking christ. Educate yourself!


Just explain it please. It can mean various things. I don't know if you mean control as in determinant or control as in a scientific control in an experiment.

And try to stay calm and post without unnecessary swearing. I know it's hard when my posts are irritating you. If only you definitely had free will. ;)

Listen to a nice, relaxing song on youtube before replying maybe.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4594  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:37 pm

Ok, I'm going to guess that you meant the latter of the two.

It is in practical terms impossible to have a control in an experimental sense. The only way to do that would be to replicate exactly and simultaneously all the conditions arising among the billions of your brain cells and the trillions of connections between them.

Unfortunately, this being virtually impossible does not help your case.

What we can ask is that having got up out of bed this morning and logged into the forum, why would you have started posting songs?

And please, address the '7 seconds' scientific experiment I did link to. If you don't do that, why should I think that you are even remotely interested in actually drilling down into the issue? You seem to go on and on about science. Well, let's examine some science then.
Last edited by archibald on Nov 29, 2016 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4595  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 1:40 pm

archibald wrote:Ok, I'm going to guess
Philosophy isn't about "guessing", it's about rigorous argumentation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zl5vpy__dQ
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Re: Free Will

#4596  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:42 pm

ughaibu wrote:
archibald wrote:Ok, I'm going to guess
Philosophy isn't about "guessing", it's about rigorous argumentation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zl5vpy__dQ


Please. Just engage with the questions.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4597  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 1:47 pm

archibald wrote:Please. Just engage with the questions.
Okay. Give me the first question.
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Re: Free Will

#4598  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:49 pm

By the way, the songs are very good. I'm glad our little set of exchanges prompted you to post them. You seem to have good taste in music.
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4599  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 1:49 pm

ughaibu wrote:
archibald wrote:Please. Just engage with the questions.
Okay. Give me the first question.


What do you make of the results of the '7 seconds' experiment?
'I like a good old fashion snog. Don't mind a shag as well.'
Scot Dutchy

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
Henry Kissinger
archibald
 
Posts: 8160

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Re: Free Will

#4600  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 1:51 pm

archibald wrote:the songs are very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnNDXjSxr4M
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