Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

Libertarian free will doesn't exist. Since we are nothing more than the result of particles obeying the laws of nature. Whatever those laws may turn out to be.

I don't think that Free Will in accordance with the Christian God could exist. If he is omniscient then he would know every decision of every person past and in the future. So our decisions would already be decided for us in the future, we're just following them.

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

In the sense of complete volitional autonomy, categorically not. We are all subject to conditioning, and are heavily influenced by circumstances.

Whether we have some degree of free will, or whether this is merely an illusion, is much harder to answer.

Seems most likely to me that the sense of free will is closely related to the sense of agency that is produced in the parietal lobe (left, IIRC). I don't see any reason to think that it corresponds to anything in particular; it's just a sensation.

There's the work that Libet did that strongly suggests that decisions are made prior to conscious awareness of them. More recently, John-Dylan Haynes, et al, did some experiments that seem to show that decisions can happen unconsciously up to 10 seconds prior to conscious awareness of them. http://brainandlearning.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-we-have-freewill.html

FBM wrote:Seems most likely to me that the sense of free will is closely related to the sense of agency that is produced in the parietal lobe (left, IIRC). I don't see any reason to think that it corresponds to anything in particular; it's just a sensation.

There's the work that Libet did that strongly suggests that decisions are made prior to conscious awareness of them. More recently, John-Dylan Haynes, et al, did some experiments that seem to show that decisions can happen unconsciously up to 10 seconds prior to conscious awareness of them. http://brainandlearning.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-we-have-freewill.html

That's interesting. The "power of the veto" is an intriguing concept. So the solution-seeking process would be unconsciouss (meaning that reliance on gut feeling or "intuition" is a perfectly reasonable strategy?), but "the conscious I" would still decide whether to act on the outcome or not. This would make free will very limited, yet still more than "just a sensation" as you suggest in the first paragraph. Thoughts?

katja z wrote:

FBM wrote:Seems most likely to me that the sense of free will is closely related to the sense of agency that is produced in the parietal lobe (left, IIRC). I don't see any reason to think that it corresponds to anything in particular; it's just a sensation.

There's the work that Libet did that strongly suggests that decisions are made prior to conscious awareness of them. More recently, John-Dylan Haynes, et al, did some experiments that seem to show that decisions can happen unconsciously up to 10 seconds prior to conscious awareness of them. http://brainandlearning.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-we-have-freewill.html

That's interesting. The "power of the veto" is an intriguing concept. So the solution-seeking process would be unconsciouss (meaning that reliance on gut feeling or "intuition" is a perfectly reasonable strategy?), but "the conscious I" would still decide whether to act on the outcome or not. This would make free will very limited, yet still more than "just a sensation" as you suggest in the first paragraph. Thoughts?

Many have said in the wake of Libet that we might not have free will but we do have free "won't".

Ilovelucy wrote:Many have said in the wake of Libet that we might not have free will but we do have free "won't".

As long as it's free something

FBM wrote:There's the work that Libet did that strongly suggests that decisions are made prior to conscious awareness of them. More recently, John-Dylan Haynes, et al, did some experiments that seem to show that decisions can happen unconsciously up to 10 seconds prior to conscious awareness of them. http://brainandlearning.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-we-have-freewill.html

More accurately, certain kinds of choices can be reliably predicted with brain imaging technology up to 10 seconds prior to conscious experience. This is rather amusing, since the previously maximum measured time was used by some proponents of Quantum Consciousness to save free will by sending signals back in time.

Anyway, Libet offered the idea of the veto himself. It has been rather solidly rebuked in an experimental setting as well. In any case, it was demolished in philosophy before it was in science.

katja z wrote:

Ilovelucy wrote:Many have said in the wake of Libet that we might not have free will but we do have free "won't".

As long as it's free something

Actually, my whole problem isn't with the "will" or "won't" bit, but with the "free" bit. I don't think it really matters so much about whether a choice was decided "freely" as it is to be confident in saying that even though the choice was determined, it was still our choice.

Comte de St.-Germain wrote:
Anyway, Libet offered the idea of the veto himself. It has been rather solidly rebuked in an experimental setting as well.

Do you have any links? I'd be interested in reading up on this.

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

No it doesn't. There is no such thing as evil, so, no relation, no problem.

Audley Strange wrote:

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

No it doesn't. There is no such thing as evil, so, no relation, no problem.

How are you defining "evil" here?

Nocterro wrote:

Audley Strange wrote:

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

No it doesn't. There is no such thing as evil, so, no relation, no problem.

How are you defining "evil" here?

I'm not, it doesn't exist thus it can't be defined.

Audley Strange wrote:

Nocterro wrote:

Audley Strange wrote:

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

No it doesn't. There is no such thing as evil, so, no relation, no problem.

How are you defining "evil" here?

I'm not, it doesn't exist thus it can't be defined.

Then why does practically every dictionary in the world define it?

Nocterro wrote:

Audley Strange wrote:

Nocterro wrote:

Audley Strange wrote:

The Doctor wrote:Does free will exist? I'm interested in how you think it relates to the problem of evil.

No it doesn't. There is no such thing as evil, so, no relation, no problem.

How are you defining "evil" here?

I'm not, it doesn't exist thus it can't be defined.

Then why does practically every dictionary in the world define it?

I'm sure they'll define unicorn too.

Are you now going to claim that "unicorn" cannot be defined?

Why is it the case that something must exist to be defined? Surely we can define all kinds of non-existent things, given that the definition does not include "...and exists".

Nocterro wrote:Are you now going to claim that "unicorn" cannot be defined?

Why is it the case that something must exist to be defined? Surely we can define all kinds of non-existent things, given that the definition does not include "...and exists".

You can define whatever you want real or otherwise if you are so inclined. Shit go nuts, make mouth noises until something sounds good and then define it and tell people that it means something if you want. You asked me how I was defining it. I don't think it exists so I'm not going to waste time trying to. You want the definition, make one up or rely on your precious dictionaries. I don't have to.

wonka08 wrote:I don't think that Free Will in accordance with the Christian God could exist. If he is omniscient then he would know every decision of every person past and in the future. So our decisions would already be decided for us in the future, we're just following them.

Hey Wonka,

Why do you equate knowing the future with controlling the future?

Audley,

Does good exist?