Free Will

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: Free Will

#4541  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 9:17 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
ughaibu wrote:THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE IS A REALISABLE COURSE OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.
THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO REALISABLE ALTERNATIVE COURSES OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.

We can't predict the future, ergo, free will. That's what you say. . .
Hey, I can predict the future, and if you were to take your finger far enough out of your arse that you could think about the actual question, you too would be able to predict the future.
Here's a challenge, arrange to meet a friend, "in the future", if you manage to meet them, then what happened? Did you predict the future? Did you have the freedom to create the future? Or was this an infinitely improbable coincidence, that your "prediction" matched the event that transpired?
If you did predict the future, go on then, teach me the magic.
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Re: Free Will

#4542  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2016 9:39 am

ughaibu wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
ughaibu wrote:THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE IS A REALISABLE COURSE OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.
THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO REALISABLE ALTERNATIVE COURSES OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.

We can't predict the future, ergo, free will. That's what you say. . .
Hey, I can predict the future, and if you were to take your finger far enough out of your arse that you could think about the actual question, you too would be able to predict the future.
Here's a challenge, arrange to meet a friend, "in the future", if you manage to meet them, then what happened? Did you predict the future? Did you have the freedom to create the future? Or was this an infinitely improbable coincidence, that your "prediction" matched the event that transpired?
If you did predict the future, go on then, teach me the magic.


But what has happened when the meeting has failed to take place, as happens often enough? Why is success an evidence of free will, and failure not? Why does free will sometimes work and sometimes not? Because it always works; it's a fucking tautology, that's why. That's enough talk from you about somebody else's finger and arse.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#4543  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 9:53 am

Cito di Pense wrote:But what has happened when the meeting has failed to take place, as happens often enough?
Well, as you're apparently perplexed by such results, let's leave it as an exercise for the reader.
Hint, whichever way it goes, we record the result.
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Re: Free Will

#4544  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 9:59 am

ughaibu wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
ughaibu wrote:THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE IS A REALISABLE COURSE OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.
THIS GUARANTEES THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO REALISABLE ALTERNATIVE COURSES OF ACTION IN THE RESEARCHER'S FUTURE.

We can't predict the future, ergo, free will. That's what you say. . .
Hey, I can predict the future, and if you were to take your finger far enough out of your arse that you could think about the actual question, you too would be able to predict the future.
Here's a challenge, arrange to meet a friend, "in the future", if you manage to meet them, then what happened? Did you predict the future? Did you have the freedom to create the future? Or was this an infinitely improbable coincidence, that your "prediction" matched the event that transpired?
If you did predict the future, go on then, teach me the magic.



In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be possible. If you can discover the rules and measure the initial conditions you can predict the future.

If we can't do quite so well at predicting human behaviour that might just be that the processes are too complex and the measurement limits and errors accumulate to much for us to do it.

You could simply call that ignorance "free will" if you like. Who could tell if you were right or wrong?

Did you "have the freedom to create the future"? Who knows? Why did you decide to meet? Unless you can answer that precisely you can't find out.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4545  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 10:03 am

ughaibu wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:But what has happened when the meeting has failed to take place, as happens often enough?
Well, as you're apparently perplexed by such results, let's leave it as an exercise for the reader.
Hint, whichever way it goes, we record the result.


Whichever way it goes it only goes that way, on that occasion, and somebody will claim it as "free will" but nobody will be able to say exactly why it happened as it did. You can't tell if it was "free will" or not. What it shows is only that what you will may or may not come to pass, but the same applies for events that are not willed. If you can take a good guess at the future you may even mistake your prediction for an act of will that caused an event.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4546  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 10:08 am

GrahamH wrote:Why did you decide to meet?


Good question.
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
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Re: Free Will

#4547  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2016 10:09 am

ughaibu wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:But what has happened when the meeting has failed to take place, as happens often enough?
Well, as you're apparently perplexed by such results, let's leave it as an exercise for the reader.
Hint, whichever way it goes, we record the result.


That's just how I responded, ughaibu. Free will is ALWAYS in operation. You can't tell when it isn't, so you will insist that it works around the clock. All that goes to show is an emotional commitment to the concept, and not a reasoned understanding that it is not possible to determine whether or not free will operates, and if so, when. You'll just say it operates whenever constraints do not intervene, and that's why it's a fucking tautology. Anyway, we inherited the concept from religious nuts. If you like that state of affairs, I have a couple of guesses as to why, and I can use my free will to 'decide' on one of them, because there are no obvious constraints (or consequences) to the decision, making it meaningless to the analysis of free will.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Nov 29, 2016 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#4548  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 10:11 am

GrahamH wrote:In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be possible. If you can discover the rules and measure the initial conditions you can predict the future.
But, you yourself would be part of that future. Borges' map, et fucking cetera. If your behaviour is determined, then so is creationism, so are all other mistakes, and there is no independent way to distinguish the mistakes from the truth.
GrahamH wrote:You could simply call that ignorance "free will" if you like.
Fuck off. I have defined free will aprops several contexts, and it never amounts to "ignorance".
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Re: Free Will

#4549  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2016 10:12 am

ughaibu wrote:If your behaviour is determined, then so is creationism, so are all other mistakes, and there is no independent way to distinguish the mistakes from the truth.


Not really. A mistake is what you call it when you write a true-false test, decide the answer is true, and the student gives the answer 'false'. A mistake is when you ask someone to do the sum 2+2 and he comes up with '5'. Creationism isn't so much a mistake as a nonsense that cannot be falsified. If you're not happy that creationists can't be proven wrong, that's entirely your problem. If, on the other hand, you're happy about that, well, let me guess...

Your version of mistakes is all about absolute reality and things in themselves, and not about free will at all.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#4550  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 10:20 am

ughaibu wrote:
GrahamH wrote:In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be possible. If you can discover the rules and measure the initial conditions you can predict the future.
But, you yourself would be part of that future. Borges' map, et fucking cetera. If your behaviour is determined, then so is creationism, so are all other mistakes, and there is no independent way to distinguish the mistakes from the truth.
GrahamH wrote:You could simply call that ignorance "free will" if you like.
Fuck off. I have defined free will aprops several contexts, and it never amounts to "ignorance".


You have never demonstrated knowledge of why anyone decides A rather than B. That certainly looks like an argument from ignorance.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4551  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2016 10:24 am

GrahamH wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
GrahamH wrote:In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be possible. If you can discover the rules and measure the initial conditions you can predict the future.
But, you yourself would be part of that future. Borges' map, et fucking cetera. If your behaviour is determined, then so is creationism, so are all other mistakes, and there is no independent way to distinguish the mistakes from the truth.
GrahamH wrote:You could simply call that ignorance "free will" if you like.
Fuck off. I have defined free will aprops several contexts, and it never amounts to "ignorance".


You have never demonstrated knowledge of why anyone decides A rather than B. That certainly looks like an argument from ignorance.


Good call, Graham. We're ignorant of why anyone would accept or reject Free Will without consideration of something unrelated. Unless, you know, everything is related to everything else, and Karma is real, which has nothing to do with ignorance.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Nov 29, 2016 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#4552  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 10:28 am

GrahamH wrote:You have never demonstrated knowledge of why anyone decide A rather than B.
Okay, the reason that I have decided that you are a hopeless case is that I have explained a whole bunch of shit, deductively, over a seven year period, but you still come back with crap like "we can't be sure", despite that idiocy having been specifically addressed.
You thereby have a demonstration.
Seriously, is your reader supposed to assume that you never had any reason for selecting the semantic content of your posts?

What in the living fuck is wrong with you? You don't have to deny that the world is as it demonstrably is!
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Re: Free Will

#4553  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 10:29 am

ughaibu wrote:
GrahamH wrote:In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be possible. If you can discover the rules and measure the initial conditions you can predict the future.
But, you yourself would be part of that future. Borges' map, et fucking cetera. If your behaviour is determined, then so is creationism, so are all other mistakes, and there is no independent way to distinguish the mistakes from the truth.


Nobody said prediction should be exact. Any system with feedback might have chaotic behaviour under determinism. Various problems don't have analytic solutions, but proeed according to deterministic processes.

In a determined world without free will predicting the future would be as possible (or more so) as it is in this world.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4554  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2016 10:31 am

ughaibu wrote:I have explained a whole bunch of shit, deductively, over a seven year period


This would be more impressive if you had glowing commendations from someone besides yourself, which makes what you're claiming look something like a hands-free wank. So it goes on the anonymous internet. Who the fuck are you? to quote the relevant song.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#4555  Postby GrahamH » Nov 29, 2016 10:37 am

ughaibu wrote:
GrahamH wrote:You have never demonstrated knowledge of why anyone decide A rather than B.
Okay, the reason that I have decided that you are a hopeless case is that I have explained a whole bunch of shit, deductively, over a seven year period, but you still come back with crap like "we can't be sure", despite that idiocy having been specifically addressed.
You thereby have a demonstration.
Seriously, is your reader supposed to assume that you never had any reason for selecting the semantic content of your posts?

What in the living fuck is wrong with you? You don't have to deny that the world is as it demonstrably is!



The reader can assume there are causes for what we write that are not at all clear to either of us. We can tell partial stories about reasons. You like the story about the free will doing it, but you seem to have precious little justification for that.

You are far too inclined to resort to condecesnion and insult to communicate effectively. Some of your points may be valid but mostly you just assert that things are obvious or stupid or give examples of determism in support of freedom. It's not surprising you are frustrated.

You don't do so well at enaging with points "specifically addressed".

You could let up on the bunches of shit.

If you want to say something about how the world "demonstrably is" try demonstrating it! How about starting with why you chose to set-up that lunch date?
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#4556  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 10:42 am

Okay. Tell me what I will not post in the next twenty four hours.
If you cannot do so, give an account that supports your contention and is incompatible with my ability to post whatever the fuck I want to.
This is science, go for it.
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Re: Free Will

#4557  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 10:56 am

ughaibu wrote:Okay. Tell me what I will not post in the next twenty four hours.
If you cannot do so, give an account that supports your contention and is incompatible with my ability to post whatever the fuck I want to.
This is science, go for it.


How about this. You would not have written that challenge were it not for the post it was a reply to, would you?

ETA: Or, if you prefer, tell Graham why you 'chose' to set up the lunch date.
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
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Re: Free Will

#4558  Postby Fenrir » Nov 29, 2016 11:05 am

ughaibu wrote:Okay. Tell me what I will not post in the next twenty four hours.


Sense.
Religion: it only fails when you test it.-Thunderf00t.
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Re: Free Will

#4559  Postby ughaibu » Nov 29, 2016 11:10 am

archibald wrote:
ughaibu wrote:Okay. Tell me what I will not post in the next twenty four hours.
If you cannot do so, give an account that supports your contention and is incompatible with my ability to post whatever the fuck I want to.
This is science, go for it.


How about this. You would not have written that challenge were it not for the post it was a reply to, would you?

ETA: Or, if you prefer, tell Graham why you 'chose' to set up the lunch date.
??? What the fuck?
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Re: Free Will

#4560  Postby archibald » Nov 29, 2016 11:17 am

Fenrir wrote:
ughaibu wrote:Okay. Tell me what I will not post in the next twenty four hours.


Sense.


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