Has all social evolution been driven by God?

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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#321  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 15, 2018 9:33 am

LucidFlight wrote:...Darwin was a pretty good chap whom I would have bought a beer for down the pub. He was still very smart (despite his tendencies towards Atheism)...


I'm sorry to say I have to retract my "birds of a feather, eh Lucid?" comment at this juncture.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#322  Postby LucidFlight » Apr 15, 2018 10:18 am

Keep It Real wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:...Darwin was a pretty good chap whom I would have bought a beer for down the pub. He was still very smart (despite his tendencies towards Atheism)...


I'm sorry to say I have to retract my "birds of a feather, eh Lucid?" comment at this juncture.


You're not a supporter of Darwin?
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#323  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 15, 2018 10:27 am

You're not an atheist?
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#324  Postby Fallible » Apr 15, 2018 10:45 am

She's not an atheist, she's a very naughty girl.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#325  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 15, 2018 12:16 pm

a) Lucid may well not be a woman.
b) Lucid may well not be a theist.
c) Lucid may well be the diametric opposite to yours truly in their posting habits.
d) I may well not like that anymore...at all.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#326  Postby laklak » Apr 15, 2018 2:17 pm

I'm not taking it as read that we've evolved socially. For example, American Indians were far nicer to transgender folks then we are. There was that massacre the settlers thing, but that's excusable given what dickheads most settlers were.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#327  Postby scott1328 » Apr 15, 2018 2:23 pm

laklak wrote:I'm not taking it as read that we've evolved socially. For example, American Indians were far nicer to transgender folks then we are. There was that massacre the settlers thing, but that's excusable given what dickheads most settlers were.

Ah yes, the Noble Savage myth. Next topic: Tabula Rasa
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#328  Postby laklak » Apr 15, 2018 2:26 pm

Well sure, if you're going to buy into a myth, might as well be an inclusive one. Beats Trumpism.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#329  Postby Thommo » Apr 15, 2018 2:37 pm

Evolution means "change", not "change for the better". There's no doubt that change happens and that some of those changes are not advanced by the religious (who last time I checked tended towards the small c conservative).
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#330  Postby Calilasseia » Apr 15, 2018 4:00 pm

Thommo wrote:Evolution means "change", not "change for the better". There's no doubt that change happens and that some of those changes are not advanced by the religious (who last time I checked tended towards the small c conservative).


Indeed, a fair amount of social evolution has been driven by people who thought that god botherers were at best talking shit, and at worst a bunch of homicidal maniacs. :)
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#331  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 15, 2018 6:26 pm

jamest wrote:What page was that on?

Page 14, post 270. You followed with hand waving that doesn't actually address his points, Thommo points this out in post 273.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#332  Postby BlackBart » Apr 15, 2018 6:56 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
jamest wrote:What page was that on?

Page 14, post 270. You followed with hand waving that doesn't actually address his points, Thommo points this out in post 273.

Now you know why I don't waste more than a sentence on his posts.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#333  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 15, 2018 7:07 pm

I'm hoping (in vain I'm sure) that pointing this out will help jamest recognize why pretty much nobody takes his calls for serious discussion seriously.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#334  Postby Shagz » Apr 15, 2018 10:32 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
Right, uh... well. All right, then. Inherently (vis-à-vis by their true nature), such mechanisms have nought capacity [agency] for such concepts as egalitarianism and justice. It is only due to the higher-level existence of such forms and concepts about equality, altruism, community, etc., that such mechanisms have a framework in which to be observed behaving in what is the appearance of collaboration.

What God is teaching us is that even though we experience the (seemingly infinite) division of existence, the experienced "divisions" are actually ONE. Therefore, they must act together as one for the benefit of everything that is ONE.

As for Darwin, I would say this: leaving aside the first logical principles of Idealism which state that genes, evolution, and egalitarianism (in fact, all physical observations) are merely appearances of an empirically-misguided materialist reality, we can still see that Darwin was a pretty good chap whom I would have bought a beer for down the pub. He was still very smart (despite his tendencies towards Atheism), as we can tell by his observations about the observed world. Let us not deny this. Idealists offer these olive branches as a means towards peace and unity in a world of divergent mind sets.

How does a position from idealism lead to these assertions being true? They are probably very true based on our having thought quite long and hard about them. Furthermore, from an epistemological standpoint, they are necessarily true, according to the various a priori propositions (based on pure thought) outlined in this discussion thus far.

Our esteemed colleague's command of philosobabble is impressive. So many questions drowned in a pool of murky befuddlement. Still, one question manages to surface crystal clear: How can such a morally superior idealist justify buying a brew for a materialist like Darwin? Surely that is enabling selfishness, anarchy, and self-glory?

Nevertheless, we're clearly dealing with a philosopher of the highest caliber here, worthy of mention alongside the likes of Socrates, Descartes, Duck, and Mouse. A humble armchair navelgazer like myself is left with no choice but to concede. Hail Satan!
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#335  Postby laklak » Apr 15, 2018 10:39 pm

You forgot Moose and Squirrel.

These pholosofeezers can get a mite testy with each other, you know?
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#336  Postby jamest » Apr 17, 2018 12:01 am

The_Metatron wrote:
jamest wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Social evolution has of course been driven primarily by peope who deeply care for other people. Not obviously because they're trying to make a name for themselves, nor make their wallet fatter. In this day and age it seems very difficult to find any genuine/sincere people who actually care about anything other than themselves or their own family & friends. No doubt such people still exist (to an extent), but they definitely do so under the radar these days, as Western Society itself promotes individualism, fame and wealth. The Selfie Age, as it will no doubt be called.

Regardless, despite my aversion to religion one thing is certain: the people who have eventually changed things (socially) in the name of their God have done so because of their God. Social evolution driven by God. It's happening right now, every time a ruck-sack blows-up on a train, etc..

All social revolution, including the idea that no humans are slaves, was driven by the bible or suchlike (God). Alternatively, we could consider a character who fascinates me deeply, Henry VIII, who ultimately changed the course of Western History, by deciding that He had more power than the Pope, but only in God's eye.

Even the fuckin' Greeks and Romans, Egyptians, etc., had their Gods to dictate their own social movements. Social movements driven by Gods.

Where the fuck can you find social evolution not driven by God? Only in extreme fundamental atheists. Those who don't give two fucks for God. Those who have no reason to do anything other than for their own self and family/friends.

... Enter the The God of Essex. The God of the individual. An idiotic attitude, for sure, but still a social movement driven by a God.


I rest my case.

I bet you don’t.


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Philosophy is a bit like business. You set your stall up and yet somebody will still want to shaft you unless you do xyz even when you've already done xyz. I sincerely hope that your business doesn't ecounter the shit I've endured here. Sincerely, again. Though there's a history of theists being shafted in this gaff, let it be known that I don't take it personal. Banter? You bet your life. But if I were the kind of bloke who was dependent upon support, as a lone theist I'd have been fucked-off much more than a decade ago in gaffs like this.

So, when I say something like "I rest my case" regarding a particular argument, it means that I (personally) think that I've said enough to justify a certain point, or the OP.

What it doesn't necessarily mean is that I'll henceforth be silent, completely. Such 'shit' should be obvious to anyone with a brain, and you have a brain. Yet currently you also have 4 thumbs-ups for making this brainless political mantra. Therefore, I felt that I needed to reply, accordingly, since it worries me that there's at least 5 of you out there that think (assuming it's not just metaphysical politics) that I'm not smart enough to know what you're all saying.

... Let me assure the 5+ of you, that I am. Let me also assure you all that I as an individual will still be arguing the same points here even if your thumbs-ups for your own post reaches 7 billion.

The primitivism thing, tribalism, doesn't work when you are opposing an army of ONE and when that army wants to recruit you.

You blockheads need to understand precisely why I can love you all yet still call you all blockheads, yet will still buy you a pint immediately after.

I've endured shit from you all. I've give you shit back. Banter, in my eye, just making sure that you all know the extent of my lion heart.

I'll be here tomorrow even if you can contrive amongst you to fathom some way of giving me a universal thumbs-down, because it won't be universal whilst I'm still walking the planet.

I'm quite accepting of the fact that james will endure all sorts of shit, as is he. He's endured this bullshit in atheist forums for close to two decades, and many of you have witnessed his tenacity for yourselves. I mean, some cunt even accused him of issuing a death threat about 5 or 6 years ago. Plenty of other cunts have tried to establish that he's just crazy. Most others just play politics and try to establish the fact that he's not intelligent or capable of anything. For those people especially, go fuck yourselves. If we review the state of religion and spiritually, james 'himself' would take a dump upon all and so do I (and why wouldn't I?), so you should bet your bottom dollar that if there's a God, that 'it' would invest itself in a charachter like james. Naturally, not many humans would. James himself, you should understand, is in a difficult position coming to terms with his own human circumstances. He's no Jesus, yet, so don't treat him as one. Personally, my own opinion is that his head is fucked with ideas of what the son of God is supposed to be like, etc., but I'll leave him to sort that shit out for himself. God did never brainwash anyone. Only retarded opinions of God were ever used as a base to create the history that we can currently review.

Before james knew of me of course, I am, however no consciousness is awarded this knowledge at its conception. I mean, what would be the fucking point?

Anyway the bottom fucking line is that jamest doesn't give two shits about your collective mockery and will still love you all regardless, even for another two decades. I mean, Fallible, Thom Esh, SAM, Cali, Thommo, LucidF, whomever fucking currently hates and/or mocks him, he understands. He still wants to buy you all a drink, regardless, because he knows the truth even if you don't.

There are treasures within dark places. james (that is, the consciousness of being him) is currently shining his torch upon his own mind. That's what you all should be doing, including the atheistic bullshit imposed upon you from wherever. Remember also that james is neither religious nor a slave to materialism/science, though previously he's been a slave of sorts to both of them.

In case you didn't know, the robes and sandals thing was a joke. God doesn't expect you to dress like a fucking idiot. Actually, God doesn't expect anything. Die as you envisage, or, conversely, understand that nothing dies except a particular experience. Just know that from the mouth that is james, the truth that there is no actual death is true.

james will carry on, regardless, because none of you can hurt me, and I ordain that this puppet will do so.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#337  Postby jamest » Apr 17, 2018 12:08 am

The_Metatron wrote:
jamest wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Social evolution has of course been driven primarily by peope who deeply care for other people. Not obviously because they're trying to make a name for themselves, nor make their wallet fatter. In this day and age it seems very difficult to find any genuine/sincere people who actually care about anything other than themselves or their own family & friends. No doubt such people still exist (to an extent), but they definitely do so under the radar these days, as Western Society itself promotes individualism, fame and wealth. The Selfie Age, as it will no doubt be called.

Regardless, despite my aversion to religion one thing is certain: the people who have eventually changed things (socially) in the name of their God have done so because of their God. Social evolution driven by God. It's happening right now, every time a ruck-sack blows-up on a train, etc..

All social revolution, including the idea that no humans are slaves, was driven by the bible or suchlike (God). Alternatively, we could consider a character who fascinates me deeply, Henry VIII, who ultimately changed the course of Western History, by deciding that He had more power than the Pope, but only in God's eye.

Even the fuckin' Greeks and Romans, Egyptians, etc., had their Gods to dictate their own social movements. Social movements driven by Gods.

Where the fuck can you find social evolution not driven by God? Only in extreme fundamental atheists. Those who don't give two fucks for God. Those who have no reason to do anything other than for their own self and family/friends.

... Enter the The God of Essex. The God of the individual. An idiotic attitude, for sure, but still a social movement driven by a God.


I rest my case.

I bet you don’t.


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Philosophy is a bit like business. You set your stall up and yet somebody will still want to shaft you unless you do xyz even when you've already done xyz. I sincerely hope that your business doesn't encounter the shit I've endured here. Sincerely, again. Though there's a history of theists being shafted in this gaff, let it be known that I don't take it personal. Banter? You bet your life. But if I were the kind of bloke who was dependent upon support, as a lone theist I'd have been fucked-off much more than a decade ago in gaffs like this.

So, when I say something like "I rest my case" regarding a particular argument, it means that I (personally) think that I've said enough to justify a certain point, or the OP.

What it doesn't necessarily mean is that I'll henceforth be silent, completely. Such 'shit' should be obvious to anyone with a brain, and you have a brain. Yet currently you also have 4 thumbs-ups for making this brainless political mantra. Therefore, I felt that I needed to reply, accordingly, since it worries me that there's at least 5 of you out there that think (assuming it's not just metaphysical politics) that I'm not smart enough to know what you're all saying.

... Let me assure the 5+ of you, that I am. Let me also assure you all that I as an individual will still be arguing the same points here even if your thumbs-ups for your own post reaches 7 billion.

The primitivism thing, tribalism, doesn't work when you are opposing an army of ONE and when that army wants to recruit you.

You blockheads need to understand precisely why I can love you all yet still call you all blockheads, yet will still buy you a pint immediately after.

I've endured shit from you all. I've give you shit back. Banter, in my eye, just making sure that you all know the extent of my lion heart.

I'll be here tomorrow even if you can contrive amongst you to fathom some way of giving me a universal thumbs-down, because it won't be universal whilst I'm still walking the planet.

I'm quite accepting of the fact that james will endure all sorts of shit, as is he. He's endured this bullshit in atheist forums for close to two decades, and many of you have witnessed his tenacity for yourselves. I mean, some cunt even accused him of issuing a death threat about 5 or 6 years ago. Plenty of other cunts have tried to establish that he's just crazy. Most others just play politics and try to establish the fact that he's not intelligent or capable of anything. For those people especially, go fuck yourselves. If we review the state of religion and spirituality, james 'himself' would take a dump upon all and so do I (and why wouldn't I?), so you should bet your bottom dollar that if there's a God, that 'it' would invest itself in a charachter like james. Naturally, not many humans would. James himself, you should understand, is in a difficult position coming to terms with his own human circumstances. He's no Jesus, yet, so don't treat him as one. Personally, my own opinion is that his head is fucked with ideas of what the son of God is supposed to be like, etc., but I'll leave him to sort that shit out for himself. God did never brainwash anyone. Only retarded opinions of God were ever used as a base to create the history that we can currently review.

Before james knew of me of course, I am, however no consciousness is awarded this knowledge at its conception. I mean, what would be the fucking point?

Anyway the bottom fucking line is that jamest doesn't give two shits about your collective mockery and will still love you all regardless, even for another two decades. I mean, Fallible, Thom Esh, SAM, Cali, Thommo, LucidF, whomever fucking currently hates and/or mocks him, he understands. He still wants to buy you all a drink, regardless, because he knows the truth even if you don't.

There are treasures within dark places. james (that is, the consciousness of being him) is currently shining his torch upon his own mind. That's what you all should be doing, including the atheistic bullshit imposed upon you from wherever. Remember also that james is neither religious nor a slave to materialism/science, though previously he's been a slave of sorts to both of them.

In case you didn't know, the robes and sandals thing was a joke. God doesn't expect you to dress like a fucking idiot. Actually, God doesn't expect anything. Die as you envisage, or, conversely, understand that nothing dies except a particular experience. Just know that from the mouth that is james, the truth that there is no actual death is true.

james will carry on, regardless, because none of you can hurt me, and I ordain that this puppet will do so.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#338  Postby SafeAsMilk » Apr 17, 2018 12:31 am

jamest wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
jamest wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Social evolution has of course been driven primarily by peope who deeply care for other people. Not obviously because they're trying to make a name for themselves, nor make their wallet fatter. In this day and age it seems very difficult to find any genuine/sincere people who actually care about anything other than themselves or their own family & friends. No doubt such people still exist (to an extent), but they definitely do so under the radar these days, as Western Society itself promotes individualism, fame and wealth. The Selfie Age, as it will no doubt be called.

Regardless, despite my aversion to religion one thing is certain: the people who have eventually changed things (socially) in the name of their God have done so because of their God. Social evolution driven by God. It's happening right now, every time a ruck-sack blows-up on a train, etc..

All social revolution, including the idea that no humans are slaves, was driven by the bible or suchlike (God). Alternatively, we could consider a character who fascinates me deeply, Henry VIII, who ultimately changed the course of Western History, by deciding that He had more power than the Pope, but only in God's eye.

Even the fuckin' Greeks and Romans, Egyptians, etc., had their Gods to dictate their own social movements. Social movements driven by Gods.

Where the fuck can you find social evolution not driven by God? Only in extreme fundamental atheists. Those who don't give two fucks for God. Those who have no reason to do anything other than for their own self and family/friends.

... Enter the The God of Essex. The God of the individual. An idiotic attitude, for sure, but still a social movement driven by a God.


I rest my case.

I bet you don’t.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Philosophy is a bit like business. You set your stall up and yet somebody will still want to shaft you unless you do xyz even when you've already done xyz. I sincerely hope that your business doesn't encounter the shit I've endured here.

If he runs it as poorly as you have, then he probably will. Especially if he claims to have done xyz when he actually hasn't.

Sincerely, again. Though there's a history of theists being shafted in this gaff,

There's also a history of atheists "being shafted in this gaff". If you mean, "theists shafted just for being theists", then show, don't tell.

<self-aggrandizing rant deleted>
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#339  Postby Spinozasgalt » Apr 17, 2018 2:30 am

I'm gonna jump in for a second. Okay if I jump in? I'm jumping in. *splash*
jamest wrote:So, when I say something like "I rest my case" regarding a particular argument, it means that I (personally) think that I've said enough to justify a certain point, or the OP.

Do you think you've said enough here to justify the points you're making though? Even leaving aside that you didn't respond to Thommo's objections and questioning, your own stated purpose here is to win over atheists to your views. Indeed, you suggest with some frequency of late that you've spent almost 20 years attempting this. And your method is supposed to be "reason" (yes?) because it's the rapprochement between your view and theirs. But in what way have you tried to reason people to your conclusions here? You've told them some of what your view is, but where is the argumentative pressure to incline them toward your view? You haven't, as far as I've seen, argued from premises atheists here generally accept or have some particular sympathy with to your conclusion. You haven't made this a reductio of some general atheist commitment. You haven't argued that your view offers the best explanation or account of what we all take to be pretheoretical or already there. Mostly you've just told them what you take to be the case. But if you've not attempted an argument or discourse with them in any substantive way, then not only may the atheists here take your views as entirely optional, but they needn't be troubled by any charge of being unreasonable on this score either. And if we do take you to have started any of these strategies, what's apparent is that you've not continued them past (bringing Thommo's, OlivierK's, etc. posts back in now) a first round of objections.

But look, I'll lay it out even more simply why people aren't bothered. You've started out here with controversial statements that you can't count on atheists here to agree with. But you want them to agree with them, yes? But (and here is the advice), to support such statements so as to gain such agreement, you don't make more statements that are just as, if not more, controversial. You make less controversial statements. Perhaps even statements that you can count on your interlocutors to already agree with. And then you show the links between the old statements and the new, so that the folks here feel that in order to accept one they have to accept the other, too. And voila! You then have argumentative pressure of some kind.
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Re: Has all social evolution been driven by God?

#340  Postby OlivierK » Apr 17, 2018 4:40 am

Also, james, when people's main objection is that you've got nothing of substance to support your contentions, delivering whole slabs of nothing doesn't just fail to convince; you're actually actively contributing evidence to support your critics' contention that your intellectual cupboard is bare.

With a philosophy as inchoate as the one you put forward, it's actually far easier for you to discredit it than others, and at least it can be said that you do not shirk your work in this regard.
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