Humans are not Zombies

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#101  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 3:58 am

Thommo wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:Wow, people here just want to talk about me,


I'm just that special!


Hold your horses, it gets "better" between there and here...



It's another train wreck.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#102  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 4:05 am

jamest wrote:
I need more than you "doubt it". I don't come here as often as I used to. When I do come, if you want my attention, please be more convincing.



Why would anyone want your attention, Jamest?

Again, the act. You're like an aging unknown thespian who tries to oblige people to treat them with respect. Your act is shallow, self-serving, and your performance is way over-wrought in comparison to your true skills.

The reason why you aren't actually a philosopher, that being someone who has either published or who teaches philosophy, is because you don't have the requisite capabilities.

That's not a problem. You also don't possess the requisite skills for engineering, or for medicine, or for synchronized paragliding... only, you haven't anchored your sense of self-worth to the pretense of mastering those.

Literally everyone sees right through you. Either drop the act, scamper off to pretend to other people how great you are, or learn to accept that this is how it's going to be forever here.

If you did the first, with enough time and earnest effort, you might even salvage your reputation here. Probably not though as we're all Corbynesque numpty sheep cunts, right?
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#103  Postby jamest » Oct 05, 2019 4:10 am

Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
I need more than you "doubt it". I don't come here as often as I used to. When I do come, if you want my attention, please be more convincing.



Why would anyone want your attention, Jamest?

You should answer that fucking question as you obviously cannot resist talking to me. :dopey:
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#104  Postby jamest » Oct 05, 2019 4:17 am

What I would 'love' is a full-blown serious discussion devoid of all of this political bullshit and underhand threats about formal warnings. A debate, maybe?

Is there anybody left in this forum capable of meeting me, for such?
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#105  Postby Thommo » Oct 05, 2019 4:26 am

jamest wrote:What I would 'love' is a full-blown serious discussion devoid of all of this political bullshit and underhand threats about formal warnings. A debate, maybe?

Is there anybody left in this forum capable of meeting me, for such?


Here's your response last time someone tried.
jamest wrote:I shall try to find time to address the issue at hand soon.


Spoiler: You never did.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#106  Postby Spinozasgalt » Oct 05, 2019 4:35 am

jamest wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
jamest wrote:I wrote in a level-3 philosophy course (philosophy of mind) stating why I thought no zombie could have created a chocolate factory as a ruse to proving why humans could not be zombies in the general sense of what that concept implied. I did NOT write about certain philosophers nor about their own perceptions of what zombies were, because if I did I wouldn't have been writing about chocolate factories.

No. I doubt that, jamest. Because...
Spinozasgalt wrote:...if you did study philosophy of mind and were tasked with writing a piece about zombies, the zombies referred to in the piece would be p-zombies: these are the zombies relevant to philosophy of mind. We can see quite clearly that you've mistaken the concept for something else when you write the following to Thommo:
jamest wrote:Don't be a dingbat. As you must know, the ONLY point of the zombie debate in philosophy is to undermine the notion of spirit/mind, rather to undermine the notion that 'we' are more than physical/chemical/robotic beings. It's basically a physicalist counter to idealism!!

Nevertheless, there is more to discuss here than our behavioural similarities. Hence, chocolate factories. For I put it to you that we cannot be equated to zombies in any form due to the FACT that we have created chocolate factories. Zombies would never have done this, even in an eternity!!!

And that's the point of the debate, because it puts the zombie argument to bed for an eternity!!!

Rather than admit your mistake, you've apparently decided to change tack and say you were never talking about the same concept because you didn't specifically use the term "p-zombie". But discussing the concept is not the same as naming it and you clearly thought you were discussing the concept.

I need more than you "doubt it". I don't come here as often as I used to. When I do come, if you want my attention, please be more convincing.

That's why I provided you with the reasons for my doubt. They come after "Because.." in the above post and I bolded a particular section to draw attention to it.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#107  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 7:45 am

jamest wrote:What I would 'love' is a full-blown serious discussion devoid of all of this political bullshit and underhand threats about formal warnings.



Perhaps you do. Perhaps it's still part of that narrative you're trying to foist off of being someone serious capable of advancing serious discussion.


jamest wrote: A debate, maybe?


I haven't seen any suggestion of you being able to hold a debate. What are you going to do without your frequent ad hominem strategy?


jamest wrote:Is there anybody left in this forum capable of meeting me, for such?


Perhaps we can ask the mods to rescind Jireh's ban for you: that should be about your level of capability.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#108  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 7:49 am

Spearthrower wrote:Humans are not strawberry jam.



I am so sick of you all not taking me seriously, not taking my masterful arguments as gospel. You should all be bowing down to me, unworthy even of licking the ground on which I walk.

You can't defeat and/or grasp this most insightful of arguments because you're all thick.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#109  Postby laklak » Oct 05, 2019 7:52 am

If you mush them up they sort of look like strawberry jam.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#110  Postby Fallible » Oct 05, 2019 8:45 am

jamest wrote:What I would 'love' is a full-blown serious discussion devoid of all of this political bullshit and underhand threats about formal warnings. A debate, maybe?

Is there anybody left in this forum capable of meeting me, for such?


Kindly bore off.
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Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#111  Postby zoon » Oct 05, 2019 9:21 am

A fortnight ago the Australian Capital Territory became the first Australian jurisdiction to rule that animals such as dogs are sentient beings (article here). Presumably this means that dogs in New South Wales are currently legal zombies, identical to dogs in the Australian Capital Territory in all physical respects, but lacking the sentience which would provide reason for legal protection from mistreatment. Whether the concept of non-physical sentience (leading to the possibility of zombies) is entirely logical or not, our minds don't seem to have a problem with it.

The current evidence is that our minds evolved to treat humans and similar creatures differently from inanimate objects, because using our own brains to predict what very similar brains will do is an extremely effective short cut. When we are using this short cut, we see the other individual as having mental features such as reason or emotion, which are essentially non-physical? Modern science has shown that we are almost certainly as fully controlled by the laws of physics as any other objects, but our evolved guesswork is still very much more effective than the best of modern science for understanding and predicting each other (and larger animals) in real time, so we still automatically see ourselves and other people in terms of mental rather than physical concepts? This becomes especially noticeable when we have animals as pets, where they are useful to our emotional lives rather than physically – laws against maltreatment of animals tend to be based on the less than clearly scientific concept of sentience.

As far as I can tell, jamest in the OP was attempting to provide scientific evidence that we are not zombies. This would be a good move for an idealist if the science was supportive, but it isn’t. Quoting from the OP:
jamest wrote:…….
My bottom-line, if you've read the link, is that zombies wouldn't have created chocolate factories. Why? Because they're neither creative nor have sensations such as those associated with specific substances such as chocolate, which we generally love.

Zombies would only care, at most, about survival. They would never ever, even in an eternity, develop industries catering to taste….

Responding to different chemicals in the environment is one of the earlier evolved features of living things, a number of bacterial species will move towards or away from specific substances such as sugar, as illustrated here. The sense of smell evolved in our pre-vertebrate ancestors before eyes or brain (Wikipedia here). Finding the right substances, and avoiding the wrong ones, is essential to survival. I would see “creativity” as coming up with something useful without being able to understand the physics behind the action, which, so far, is the case for almost everything human brains do.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#112  Postby Thommo » Oct 05, 2019 9:37 am

One of the fundamental problems with approaching this from science though is that even if we could prove consciousness (or qualia, or subjectivity or any of the other related concepts) is not a physical thing (and I don't think science claims that at this point in time) that doesn't mean it proves that consciousness is a non-physical thing.

The "thing" part is an assumption - it might be that we are predisposed to reify certain models or mental functions and it might be that this has evolutionary benefit. That isn't the same as establishing the ontological status of of those models or functions.

As an example, suppose I could prove a shadow is not a physical thing (for example by having it move faster than the speed of light and "break" the laws of physics), what now? It's still fully explained by physics and physical phenomena. Or in the parlance of certain philosophical views supervenient on them. The problem arises purely through our erroneous description of the phenomenon at play and the shortcuts we take in describing it.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#113  Postby felltoearth » Oct 05, 2019 10:30 am

Look at these two having a logical discussion like they know stuff and shit.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#114  Postby scott1328 » Oct 05, 2019 2:05 pm

as far as I can tell, dogs (whether they be zombie dogs from NSW, or sentient dogs from the capital district) would build a chocolate factory if they could. and then each would gorge themselves on chocolate and die.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#115  Postby laklak » Oct 05, 2019 2:24 pm

I think the chocolate/dog thing is fake news. I had a mini daschund who ate a whole bag of Hershey's Kisses and all she did was shit all over the place.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#116  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 2:47 pm

It can be bloody dangerous for dogs, but most chocolate sweets simply don't contain enough cocoa and therefore not enough theobromine which is the bit toxic to dogs. From what I've read, US chocolate sweets contain even less than most, so that's probably a component too. Actually, chocolate is far worse for cats which have much lower tolerance to theobromine, but as cats can't taste sweet they don't tend to eat it... and therefore would never open a chocolate factory, can safely be considered zombies, and therefore God.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#117  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 2:52 pm

felltoearth wrote:Look at these two having a logical discussion like they know stuff and shit.



Yeah, wrong thread chaps! :roll:


Just kidding: actually interesting contributions.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#118  Postby GrahamH » Oct 05, 2019 5:55 pm

Thommo wrote:
As an example, suppose I could prove a shadow is not a physical thing (for example by having it move faster than the speed of light and "break" the laws of physics), what now? It's still fully explained by physics and physical phenomena.


A vaguely comparable claim to immaterial consciousness would be that your shadow's movement is not adequately explained by your own physical motion, that it seems self-animated in some way. This would be easily disproved and doesn't happen. Brain / mind is far more complex so mysterians like jamest get away with their crap more than they should when they claim the shadow is of substance and alive.

Also, if it could be shown that a shadow literally "moves faster than the speed of light" it wouldn't be "fully explained by physics and physical phenomena"
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#119  Postby Thommo » Oct 05, 2019 6:43 pm

Shadows can apparently move faster than light*. The problem is a shadow is not a thing, it's the contrast between the things around it and where the things around it aren't. A very literal negative space concept.

This is pretty directly relevant to ideas like qualia which on a view like Chalmers's are reified - they are objects of his ontology. There's no reason to subscribe to that ontology any more than to a shadow ontology. A shadow is not a thing in the same way a pair of trousers is a thing, even though we identify both in the same way with at least one of our senses, by differentiating between different amounts of light falling on part of our retina and then processing the resultant information. What's to say "redness" isn't the same? What's to say that seeing "redness", identifying things as red isn't simply drawing a contrast and differentiating (or identifying a similarity, or both) between two levels of stimulus, that what I am conceptualising is not the thing, but the contrast between things?

Well, nothing says that. So why assume "redness" is a thing, even if science ends up making all the findings (and only those findings) that Chalmers et al conjecture? Even in that situation the assumptions needed to build this hypothetical non-physicalist model are not actually justified. The same very much goes for hard problem reasoning. How could we ever justify knowing that all the so-called "easy problems" of consciousness had actually been answered to even know that what remained was his hard problem?

All of these ideas just bake in a certain set of assumptions and make them harder to get at, rather than making them go away.

*A brief explanation of the concept:
http://thescienceexplorer.com/universe/ ... peed-light
In principle, shadows can move faster than the speed of light. “Strictly speaking dark cannot have a speed,” says Pete Edwards of Durham University. “It does not move or travel in any way. However, if we think of dark as the absence of light, dark is chased away by light and so it disappears at the same speed as light arrives. In this sense the speed of dark is equivalent to the speed of light.”

Along some distance, a shadow can become larger than the object creating it. When a shadow is bigger than the object casting it, it moves at a greater distance but in the same amount of time. If the shadow is large enough, it could move across the surface faster than light.

This is an illusion that darkness travels faster than the speed of light, and it is still agreed that no physical object can travel faster — since darkness has no mass.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#120  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 05, 2019 7:11 pm

We did this years ago! :)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseud ... l#p2254217

Spearthrower wrote:
How fast is the speed of dark?


Far faster than the speed of light! :) The problem is that every time we shine a torch on it to measure how fast it moves, it's already bloody gone! :coffee:
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