"If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#261  Postby imahaider » Jul 15, 2018 2:41 pm

Sound does not require a human witness as the empirical measure of proof that it was generated. The animal world provides nearly infinite examples of that.

A tree that falls without a human to witness it, does, in fact, make a sound.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#262  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 15, 2018 8:29 pm

Turn the question upside down : is it possible for a tree to fall without making a sound ? The answer is no it is
not even if no one is there to hear it or they are but cannot hear it anyway [ human hearing is relatively poor ]

The only places where sound cannot exist is in a vacuum or in space [ they have no air so sound cannot travel within them ]
Then if a tree fell there you would hear nothing but you would be dead in no time at all so the point is somewhat academic
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#263  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 15, 2018 8:29 pm

Turn the question upside down : is it possible for a tree to fall without making a sound ? The answer is no it is
not even if no one is there to hear it or they are but cannot hear it anyway [ human hearing is relatively poor ]

The only places where sound cannot exist is in a vacuum or in space [ they have no air so sound cannot travel within them ]
Then if a tree fell there you would hear nothing but you would be dead in no time at all so the point is somewhat academic
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#264  Postby jamest » Jul 16, 2018 11:50 pm

Will the fuckin' Sun seem yellow in the morning on planet earth? No, it fuckin' won't, unless experiencers of 'yellow' are there.

You fucking dipsticks still haven't grasped that the 'sound' of a tree falling in the forest is an 'experience', not data. How many times do you all need to be told that this is not a forum for retarded people?
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#265  Postby scott1328 » Jul 16, 2018 11:54 pm

For your restricted definition of “sound”
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#266  Postby jamest » Jul 17, 2018 12:09 am

scott1328 wrote:For your restricted definition of “sound”

Restricted, my arse.

Until about 100+ years ago 'sound' had no meaning except experientially. Even now, only a small percentage of the world's population consider it in any other way. So, fuck that bollocks. According to the majority of the world's populace, only
'experiencers' of colour see yellow/orange/red in the sky. Likewise, only EXPERIENCERs of sound 'hear' a tree fall in the forest.

It's doing my fucking head in that I have to explain this to you after all of these years. Are you still not aware that the observation/experience of X, is not X? :waah:
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#267  Postby imahaider » Jul 17, 2018 2:43 am

Likewise, only EXPERIENCERs of sound 'hear' a tree fall in the forest.

Sound does not require a human witness (to "experience" it) as the empirical measure of proof that it was generated.

When we see lightning so far away that we cannot 'hear' it, we still KNOW from EXPERIENCE that it produces thunder. The roar of a waterfall doesn't go silent, waiting for someone to EXPERIENCE it. The universe doesn't cease to function without someone to EXPERIENCE it. Pull your head out.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#268  Postby laklak » Jul 17, 2018 3:19 am

Until y'all agree on a common definition for "sound" it's just the usual circle jerk.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#269  Postby TopCat » Jul 17, 2018 10:04 am

This thread should have died after post 3.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#270  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 18, 2018 1:05 pm

TopCat wrote:This thread should have died after post 3.

Absolutely! :thumbup:
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#271  Postby imahaider » Jul 19, 2018 11:55 am

"If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?"

Yes, it does. Because sound does not require a human witness as the empirical measure of proof that it (sound) was generated.

The problem with arguing over semantics is that by the end of what is usually overwrought dialogue, even the most sensible onlookers will walk away thinking, what a colossal waste of time this was for everyone involved.

Finis.
Last edited by imahaider on Jul 20, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#272  Postby juju7 » Jul 19, 2018 1:45 pm

Since this is an hypothetical tree, it can't make any sound.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#273  Postby romansh » Jul 19, 2018 5:28 pm

There are a couple of nice quotes earlier in this thread that go something like this:
Without an observer there are no qualia.
and
When a tree falls in a forest and there is no a synaethesete to hear it, does still make colours?

Whether these address the original koan or no ... I don't know
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#274  Postby jamest » Jul 20, 2018 12:45 am

This thread is bizarre. Until about the 19th/20th centuries, the definition of sound was something MERELY associated with the experience/sensation of sound via OBSERVERS thereof. Thereafter, OBSERVERS thereof who had studied THE ORDER inherent within their sensations/experiences decided that sound had a second meaning applicable to the world that they were experiencing/observing in the first instance.

Please note and underline the following fact:

This 'modern' definition of sound (along the lines of 'things' vibrating and affecting one another) DOES NOT TRANSCEND experience/sensation. Note too that this applies equally to all science based upon the sensation/experience of 'seeing/observation', more so really when you realise that most science has its basis in what can be 'seen'.


The actual IMPORTANCE of PHILOSOPHICAL threads like these has its basis in FACTS like the ones provided here in my post. Namely, that science has its own basis within EXPERIENCE/SENSATION and does NOT transcend experience/sensation.

Therefore, when someone asks a question such as the OP, all of you muppets who start mocking and preaching science look like fuckin' medieval retards to anyone with a metaphysical clue. I mean, the FACT IS that 'we' know NO facts unassociated from sensation/experience/observation. Therefore, ONLY a medieval retard would insist that trees make sounds when there's no observer within the equation. Even science itself, established upon 'empirical proof' ('observation') cannot dispute this fact,

If you want to carry on acting like a fucking medieval retard, then go ahead, but at least know that there are many people like me who recognise you for what you are. Conversely, stop acting like a fucking medieval retard and REALISE that science does NOT transcend experience.

... IF you ever manage that, you'll have transcended the mode of being a medieval retard. Congratulations.
If you don't manage that, then stfu as you should NOT be pretending to be smart enough to post here in the philosophy/reasoning forum.

Did you not like that? Tough fucking shit. I mean, I'm not stringing you up here. Grow a pair and wake the fuck up before you die. Otherwise, it's sheep to the slaughter, as per usual.

I'm fed-up of feeling like Tim Robbins in Shawshank. I'm not doing that any more.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#275  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 20, 2018 3:26 am

jamest wrote:This thread is bizarre. Until about the 19th/20th centuries, the definition of sound was something MERELY associated with the experience/sensation of sound via OBSERVERS thereof. Thereafter, OBSERVERS thereof who had studied THE ORDER inherent within their sensations/experiences decided that sound had a second meaning applicable to the world that they were experiencing/observing in the first instance.

Please note and underline the following fact:

This 'modern' definition of sound (along the lines of 'things' vibrating and affecting one another) DOES NOT TRANSCEND experience/sensation. Note too that this applies equally to all science based upon the sensation/experience of 'seeing/observation', more so really when you realise that most science has its basis in what can be 'seen'.

You always assert this, bare-assed, and in complete contradiction to everything we ever observe. Assuming that compression waves simply don't happen when an ear and brain aren't around is absolutely fucking bonkers. It would also be incredibly easy to prove if it were so.

The actual IMPORTANCE of PHILOSOPHICAL threads like these has its basis in FACTS like the ones provided here in my post. Namely, that science has its own basis within EXPERIENCE/SENSATION and does NOT transcend experience/sensation.

Complete and total nonsense. If your philosophy tells you that compression waves simply don't exist when there isn't an ear and brain around to process them, then it's even more worthless than I previously thought.

Therefore, when someone asks a question such as the OP, all of you muppets who start mocking and preaching science look like fuckin' medieval retards to anyone with a metaphysical clue.

Says the guy touting the medieval retarded understanding of sound :lol: I'm sure you find astrology more advanced and accurate than astronomy as well.

I mean, the FACT IS that 'we' know NO facts unassociated from sensation/experience/observation.

It isn't a fact, and it's easy enough to demonstrate. Step in front of a moving bus. I know you're going to get smeared even though I haven't experienced/observed you specifically getting smeared, but you're not so sure, so why not give it a try?

Therefore, ONLY a medieval retard would insist that trees make sounds when there's no observer within the equation. Even science itself, established upon 'empirical proof' ('observation') cannot dispute this fact,

If you're insisting that no compression waves would be produced that could be picked up by an eardrum and interpreted by a brain, then your position is medieval and retarded. THAT is a fact.

If you want to carry on acting like a fucking medieval retard, then go ahead, but at least know that there are many people like me who recognise you for what you are.

I doubt anybody with two brain cells to rub together takes your position.


Conversely, stop acting like a fucking medieval retard and REALISE that science does NOT transcend experience.

... IF you ever manage that, you'll have transcended the mode of being a medieval retard.

So working from the position that things happen in an orderly way as we observe everywhere all the time is medieval and retarded, but working from the position that they don't, like a superstitious medieval retard isn't :lol:

Congratulations.
If you don't manage that, then stfu as you should NOT be pretending to be smart enough to post here in the philosophy/reasoning forum.

Did you not like that? Tough fucking shit. I mean, I'm not stringing you up here. Grow a pair and wake the fuck up before you die. Otherwise, it's sheep to the slaughter, as per usual.

I'm fed-up of feeling like Tim Robbins in Shawshank. I'm not doing that any more.

You're an absolute fucking idiot, and are completely unaware of it.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#276  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 20, 2018 3:45 am

jamest wrote:Will the fuckin' Sun seem yellow in the morning on planet earth? No, it fuckin' won't, unless experiencers of 'yellow' are there.

Yes it will, because yellow is a specific wavelength, and will always be that wavelength even if there are no eyes or brains around.

Your point is Bill O'Reilly level of stupid.

You fucking dipsticks still haven't grasped that the 'sound' of a tree falling in the forest is an 'experience', not data. How many times do you all need to be told that this is not a forum for retarded people?

The tree falls and produces compression waves whether you experience it or not. If you choose to interpret sound as only the experience of these waves, good for you, but don't pretend it's some sort of meaningful philosophical point. That would be medieval and retarded.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#277  Postby surreptitious57 » Jul 20, 2018 6:05 am

james wrote:
I mean the FACT IS that we know NO facts unassociated from sensation / experience / observation

Facts can be derived from reason alone such as for example with mathematics
Knowledge can therefore not only be acquired empirically but logically as well

You cannot know that one plus one equals two from experience or from observation
Numbers are not real and so cannot be sensed or observed like physical objects can
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#278  Postby imahaider » Jul 20, 2018 12:26 pm

"fucking medieval retard"

Q: If a megalomaniac postulates in a philosophy forum, and anyone dares disagree, does it make an audible cursing sound?

A: 99:1 - yes. And someone, or something, will likely pay dearly.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#279  Postby felltoearth » Jul 20, 2018 12:45 pm

I wish he would stop using the word retard.
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Re: "If a tree falls" joke?? What is the answer?

#280  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Also stop insulting medieval people. They couldn't help not knowing what anything was, jamest has no excuse for his ignorance.
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