Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#741  Postby absols » Oct 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Fallible wrote:I'm not my god. I don't believe in God. I don't advocate a weird belief. I am giving you the Word according to james.


oh sorry no offense ;)
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#742  Postby Fallible » Oct 15, 2013 12:52 pm

None taken. :cheers:
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#743  Postby jamest » Oct 15, 2013 1:04 pm

absols wrote:
Fallible wrote:I'm not my god. I don't believe in God. I don't advocate a weird belief. I am giving you the Word according to james.


oh sorry no offense ;)

Yes, it's me you need to be offending.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#744  Postby LucidFlight » Oct 15, 2013 1:48 pm

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Fallible wrote:He is his god, and so are you.


And he, like Destroyer, he doesn't think brains are real.

Jamest and Destroyer have some common ground.

If he doesn't think brains are real, then what's the point of controlling brains as a means of mass salvation?

Btw, I think that brains have a reductive explanation - not that they don't exist. There has to be something underpinning everything.


What is you problem with the idea of a god controlling brains (that are 'phenomenal objects that don't exist')?

In your scheme, if god decided to' reveal the Truth to everyone' wouldn't that be done along with orchestration of appropriate brain activity? What's the difference?


If jamest's god exists, then I suspect some twisted self-inflicted Schadenfreude as part of its experience in orchestrating an argument against itself by way of jamest engaging on internet forums with other orchestrated "individuals" with opposing and dismissive views. This is, of course, assuming that jamest's god is, in fact, able to understand that this is, in fact, what it is doing to itself, and is indeed able to enjoy the experience from the side that rejects jamest's philosophy. If I am indeed part of teh one true god, then I can say for certain that it is experiencing some joy and amusement from this side of the "argument".

Orchestrating world peace and ending poverty and hunger would certainly open a few eyes and shut down any dismissal of jamest's philosophy, but it's far more interesting and useful orchestrating internet-forum based "discussions".
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#745  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:10 pm

GrahamH wrote:Destroyer stated that phenomenal entities do not exist, and he seems to believe in some sort of fundamental God-mind. Doesn't that make him an idealist? You both see the world as illusion. James, you think brains and self identify are fictions by God, for God. It is trivial for such a God / author to enter 'the empirical realm' .

The difference between myself and an idealist is that I do not believe that the illusory universe is being generated by a real Mind. But by a Mind that has corruptly converted and contaminated Himself so that He now appears to be the phenomenal universe.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#746  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:13 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
- A God who really exists cannot have control over illusory appearances (the phenomenal universe). God only controls actual existence (Himself).



A 'god' that can't even control illusion is feeble thing indeed, unworthy of the name.
If 'god' has been talking to you he lied. That is no god.

Destroyer wrote:- The brain functions by its own electrical impulses: Those electrical impulses are its control.


You contradict yourself. Earlier you claimed god would control brains. Which is it?


- How can one who really exists have any compatibility with illusion? No compatibility means having nothing in common to acknowledge or associate with.

- Earlier I said that God would take illicit control of brains.

How does an illusionist create illusions? How does an author create a work of fiction? There is no difficulty there. The impossibility is for an illusion or fiction to create.

The illusion is not being generated by an illusionist. The illusion is being generated by being falsely identified with One whose nature is real existence.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#747  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 2:20 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Destroyer stated that phenomenal entities do not exist, and he seems to believe in some sort of fundamental God-mind. Doesn't that make him an idealist? You both see the world as illusion. James, you think brains and self identify are fictions by God, for God. It is trivial for such a God / author to enter 'the empirical realm' .

The difference between myself and an idealist is that I do not believe that the illusory universe is being generated by a real Mind. But by a Mind that has corruptly converted and contaminated Himself so that He now appears to be the phenomenal universe.


How can anything be generated by an unreal mind?
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#748  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 2:24 pm

You seem (almost) to be saying that you don't believe in a sentient 'god; That 'One whose nature is real existence.' creates illusory 'mind' that infers an illusory god.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#749  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:25 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Destroyer stated that phenomenal entities do not exist, and he seems to believe in some sort of fundamental God-mind. Doesn't that make him an idealist? You both see the world as illusion. James, you think brains and self identify are fictions by God, for God. It is trivial for such a God / author to enter 'the empirical realm' .

The difference between myself and an idealist is that I do not believe that the illusory universe is being generated by a real Mind. But by a Mind that has corruptly converted and contaminated Himself so that He now appears to be the phenomenal universe.


How can anything be generated by an unreal mind?

The Mind is ALL that originally existed in reality. It is that real existence which is now being falsely claimed to identify with the phenomenal universe - hence it is just an illusion.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#750  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:31 pm

GrahamH wrote:You seem (almost) to be saying that you don't believe in a sentient 'god; That 'One whose nature is real existence.' creates illusory 'mind' that infers an illusory god.

You are now getting confused with what I am saying.

God, a sentient Being originally existed. Being eternal, that Being could not create from His own nature. So He falsely converted Himself into an entity that could generate others: because without others there could be no communications or interactions.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#751  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:You seem (almost) to be saying that you don't believe in a sentient 'god; That 'One whose nature is real existence.' creates illusory 'mind' that infers an illusory god.

You are now getting confused with what I am saying.

God, a sentient Being originally existed. Being eternal, that Being could not create from His own nature. So he falsely converted Himself into an entity that could generate others: because without others there could be no communications or interactions.


That makes no sense. If god cannot 'create from his own nature' he can't create a false version of himself.
If he falsely converted himself (i.e. did not convert himself, but created the illusion of a different nature) then that illusory / false version could not create anything, since it could only subsist in the true unconverted god nature.

If only god exists there can be no True Interactions between separate extant entities, but there can be any amount of interaction between generated characters (that is Jamest's version). Complex interaction between characters is routine in fiction.

If there can be no True Interactions there can be no True Interactions. 'False conversion' cant' get around that. It can only get you 'False Interaction' (interactions between false characters).
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#752  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 2:46 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Destroyer stated that phenomenal entities do not exist, and he seems to believe in some sort of fundamental God-mind. Doesn't that make him an idealist? You both see the world as illusion. James, you think brains and self identify are fictions by God, for God. It is trivial for such a God / author to enter 'the empirical realm' .

The difference between myself and an idealist is that I do not believe that the illusory universe is being generated by a real Mind. But by a Mind that has corruptly converted and contaminated Himself so that He now appears to be the phenomenal universe.


How can anything be generated by an unreal mind?

The Mind is ALL that originally existed in reality. It is that real existence which is now being falsely claimed to identify with the phenomenal universe - hence it is just an illusion.


Or vice versa.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#753  Postby Thommo » Oct 15, 2013 2:47 pm

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#754  Postby absols » Oct 15, 2013 2:50 pm

the easiest way to be positive and superior, because for existing in absolute ways you must be individually both, positive source is superiority and superiority presence is positive freedom as its objective source, there cant be objective value realisation unless ones are free and they cant move if they are not constant positive true energies, right selves

so i was saying that the easiest way to be positive and superior, is to kill right selves
like ending the right end, is eternity no end

this is why it is impossible to recognize wrong ways, like really too cool while too violent and no values at all, and insist with their gods to got it all forever
it is incredible how one kick so an individual negative move against something existing is enough to kill it
thing constancy when it is defending itself then it stop to be positively real in truth, and it cant be back it, meaning truth is not true, truth must stay always else to being true, else superiority, and of course truth superiority is no one it wont ever move to support individual rights
to truth, when all wrong die then what is left would b right to be real, the right freely superior or truly free

truth would consider that who are suffering from else wrong powers on them, are dead, because objective truth is superiority so the powers are representing truth and not the rights forced to be in real pains alone

we are mortals so we cannot know all their machiavelic ways to control absolutely opposites relations of reversed individualities, so they are the only existence, that is why they keep preaching that all must stay like one hypocritly

and wrong individual wills are in heaven since they are naturally the same meaning of existence, even if all gods want to mean their death, they cant, when gods are existence then any same mean is a living power, that what i guess explain satan powers over life and rights existence

the only question for me, is how is it possible to be so far free from truth as to reverse it and opposed its reality

i dont know how that it is possible, i thought that by definition there cant be any but relatively to truth fact

but obviously no, lies are existence and lies are life reality, perverts only enjoy everything same ways and are constantly positive publically supported by all natural life same

i dont hate everyone, i just dont understand why there is no way to be right subjectively, how it is not allowed and any right must get humiliated and suffer a lot while he would be enslaved even there to be others life
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#755  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:51 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:You seem (almost) to be saying that you don't believe in a sentient 'god; That 'One whose nature is real existence.' creates illusory 'mind' that infers an illusory god.

You are now getting confused with what I am saying.

God, a sentient Being originally existed. Being eternal, that Being could not create from His own nature. So he falsely converted Himself into an entity that could generate others: because without others there could be no communications or interactions.


That makes no sense. If god cannot 'create from his own nature' he can't create a false version of himself.
If he falsely converted himself (i.e. did not convert himself, but created the illusion of a different nature) then that illusory / false version could not create anything, since it could only subsist in the true unconverted god nature.

If only god exists there can be no True Interactions between separate extant entities, but there can be any amount of interaction between generated characters (that is Jamest's version). Complex interaction between characters is routine in fiction.

If there can be no True Interactions there can be no True Interactions. 'False conversion' cant' get around that. It can only get you 'False Interaction' (interactions between false characters).

You are really confusing yourself, Graham. One who is eternal cannot create. Whatever is eternal, just happens to be so: It cannot be created or destroyed. Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions. He falsely converted His Conscious energy into the unconsciousness that we see before us.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#756  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 2:56 pm

Destroyer wrote:
You are really confusing yourself, Graham. One who is eternal cannot create. Whatever is eternal, just happens to be so: It cannot be created or destroyed. Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions. He converted His Conscious energy into the unconsciousness that we see before us.


Then god is fucked. If 'God could not create others from His own nature' then he could not 'convert His Conscious energy into the unconsciousness', which is clearly creating something distinct to 'his own nature'. :naughty:

If you want One God he is necessarily going to be alone. If, as you say, he can't even create fictions to amuse himself it's going to be a very dull eternity.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#757  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 2:59 pm

GrahamH wrote:[quote="Destroyer";p="1829482"
You are really confusing yourself, Graham. One who is eternal cannot create. Whatever is eternal, just happens to be so: It cannot be created or destroyed. Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions. He converted His Conscious energy into the unconsciousness that we see before us.


Then god is fucked. If 'God could not create others from His own nature' then he could not 'convert His Conscious energy into the unconsciousness', which is clearly creating something distinct to 'his own nature'. :naughty:

If you want One God he is necessarily going to be alone. If, as you say, he can't even create fictions to amuse himself it's going to be a very dull eternity.[/quote]

Have you not heard that energy, whilst incapable of being created or destroyed, can indeed be converted into other forms of energy.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#758  Postby absols » Oct 15, 2013 3:01 pm

:waah:
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#759  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:02 pm

Destroyer wrote: Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions.


Ah, so an omnipotent god (falsely) created an immovable object to meet his need. :lol:
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#760  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:03 pm

Destroyer wrote:Have you not heard that energy, whilst incapable of being created or destroyed, can indeed be converted into other forms of energy.


Yes indeed, energy can create material structure.
Why do you think that?
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