Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#761  Postby jamest » Oct 15, 2013 3:04 pm

Destroyer wrote:
The difference between myself and an idealist is that I do not believe that the illusory universe is being generated by a real Mind. But by a Mind that has corruptly converted and contaminated Himself so that He now appears to be the phenomenal universe.

Appearances are the kind of phenomenon which require observation/awareness and judgement. The act of observing or being aware of something, using judgement, is something that a 'mind' does.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#762  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 3:05 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote: Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions.


Ah, so an omnipotent god (falsely) created an immovable object to meet his need. :lol:

Have you ever heard me refer to God as omnipotent?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#763  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:07 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote: Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions.


Ah, so an omnipotent god (falsely) created an immovable object to meet his need. :lol:

Have you ever heard me refer to God as omnipotent?


Not much a of god, is he?
Uncreative, lonely and impotent. It's not a good sales pitch.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#764  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 3:07 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:Have you not heard that energy, whilst incapable of being created or destroyed, can indeed be converted into other forms of energy.


Yes indeed, energy can create material structure.

The significance is its ability to be converted.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#765  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:09 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:Have you not heard that energy, whilst incapable of being created or destroyed, can indeed be converted into other forms of energy.


Yes indeed, energy can create material structure.

The significance is its ability to be converted.


The significance is your insistence that god cannot create (not even fiction).
That conversion of form is not creating new form.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#766  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 3:12 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote: Because God could not create others from His own nature; but is in need of others in order to be inhibited in His expressions.


Ah, so an omnipotent god (falsely) created an immovable object to meet his need. :lol:

Have you ever heard me refer to God as omnipotent?


Not much a of god, is he?
Uncreative, lonely and impotent. It's not a good sales pitch.



As I have not the slightest interest in persuasion, this will be my final post on this particular topic.

It is not just you, but an entire universe that God has to convince of His corrupt existence.

As this is my last post, let me answer your previous post here. God's energy being converted into another form is not new, because God is pretending that this is still His original nature.

Take care for now.
Last edited by Destroyer on Oct 15, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#767  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:16 pm

Destroyer wrote:
It is not just you, but an entire universe that God has to convince of His corrupt existence.

Take care for now.


Nope, if any of this nonsense was not nonsense god would only, could only, have to convince himself, and he could not deceive himself, so there would be nothing to do. How could god (==existence), being all that truly exists, incapable of change or creation, corrupt existence? It's absurd.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#768  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:18 pm

The thing that interests me is that you presumably don't see the absurdity of it all. To be sure there is great deepity in your ideas.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#769  Postby Destroyer » Oct 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Ah, so an omnipotent god (falsely) created an immovable object to meet his need. :lol:

Have you ever heard me refer to God as omnipotent?


Not much a of god, is he?
Uncreative, lonely and impotent. It's not a good sales pitch.



As I have not the slightest interest in persuasion, this will be my final post on this particular topic.

It is not just you, but an entire universe that God has to convince of His corrupt existence.

As this is my last post, let me answer your previous post here. God's energy being converted into another form is not new, because God is pretending that this is still His original nature.

Take care for now.
Last edited by Destroyer on Oct 15, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#770  Postby absols » Oct 15, 2013 3:22 pm

Thommo wrote:“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― George Carlin


i think it is more about the weakness of true existence, when it is noone but an objective premise conception of freedom rights, then any can try his chance to pretend being positive freedom right objective superior realities life sources, so an idiot or an insistent inferior ways, even if convinced would react negatively since it cant be constant convinced
to be constant any must b free, and to b free it must b truly positive alone and to be truly positive alone it must be superior objective realisations living source...a lot would choose their ways ends, but the most insistent to be through inferior ways would insist more to force anyone to be down

i dont think that idiots exist, when objective perspectives are always superior in truth, it is more about the absolute freedom kind, so the way in truth
that is why a lot of what are called idiots have phd and can prove being very smart, but when talking with another they get to their point they wont see any need to be through facts, they would jump to be their freedom when they see another free

they are not selfish because one must be through objective to be the superfcial ineherited self, they are free wills, like they want to get being free, which prove what i said being true

when right ends are killed then in no end eternity, freedom is not true, there is no geniune mean or sense, freedom is like bought or sold

so it proves that all is already of killing all rights till the end, that is how these kind of free wills exist

they cant be but if all absolutely all is fake, bc all absolutely all rights are killed

if one right is existing it would be existence reference, there is no such thing so all rights are killed
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#771  Postby GrahamH » Oct 15, 2013 3:37 pm

Destroyer wrote:As this is my last post, let me answer your previous post here. God's energy being created into another form is not new, because God is pretending that this is still His original nature.

Take care for now.


So god is really changing his nature, but pretending not to?
If god is pretending anything there it can only be that his nature has changed (it cannot).
Why do you think that?
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#772  Postby Matthew Shute » Oct 15, 2013 3:43 pm

Destroyer wrote:It is not just you, but an entire universe that God has to convince of His corrupt existence.


How and why would he do such a thing at this stage, even if (in his supposed corrupted and uncreative impotence) he could do so? He's had a while (13 billion years or so).

As I have not the slightest interest in persuasion [...]


Sure, that'll be why you've spent years making so many posts assuring us about the inevitability of this demented prophecy. Come off it.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#773  Postby Fallible » Oct 15, 2013 3:53 pm

:nod:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#774  Postby absols » Oct 15, 2013 4:02 pm

Destroyer wrote:

As I have not the slightest interest in persuasion, this will be my final post on this particular topic.

It is not just you, but an entire universe that God has to convince of His corrupt existence.

As this is my last post, let me answer your previous post here. God's energy being converted into another form is not new, because God is pretending that this is still His original nature.

Take care for now.


as if you can replace what was before god so natural living freedom by another like humans freedoms, and mean both as possessions, while natural life is first incomparable to humans wills, and what is first is always free
so it shows how there is not but him in that mean
in truth there is no cheating possible, because the only way is to objectively clearly constantly realize else superiority to else positive realities, by realizing then else reality is so it is easy to get directly to the true else reality and clarify how it is positive right according to existing free perspective

god is the opposite always of that, while you insist to deny his true identity
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#775  Postby tolman » Oct 18, 2013 1:30 pm

Destroyer wrote:Have you not heard that energy, whilst incapable of being created or destroyed, can indeed be converted into other forms of energy.

So, we're into pig-ignorant science-analogy time?

If you're going to argue that energy is eternal*, that is only true from a viewpoint where one considers the eternal thing to be some more general mass/energy thing.
And from that viewpoint, there isn't some special transformation going on from one kind of thing onto another, simply between different variants of the same basic kind of thing.

With your supposed god, it would be equivalent to saying that the eternal/unreal and the real were actually just shades of the same thing, which would completely undermine the great distinction you want to make between your god-stuff and real stuff - deep down, they'd have to be essentially the same stuff.

(*Which still leaves issues around the big bang, etc, depending on how one views negative energy.)
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#776  Postby absols » Oct 18, 2013 5:06 pm

but this is what religious posters, tolman, always mean
as if the word individuals is just to serve creations glorifications, knowing that of course there is no ever anyone but god

it is too painful to deal with those means live, i dunno how can anyone do that harm directly without ever stopping

words we write are clear thoughts, that insitence to mean those ugly things on others and about killing humans rights is such present powerful energy of everything, showing how the standard of existence is excessively low

so it is not only painful but also scary to picture what that mean, there is nothing right, the exclusive right concept, nothing, which cant be, when right is the living present thing realisations so never nothing
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#777  Postby scott1328 » Jul 21, 2018 11:45 pm

Teuton wrote:
Mick wrote:1. No concrete individual could have been referred to before it existed.


This is equivalent to saying that we cannot refer to future things or events. But it seems we can. Can't I refer to my death or the 45th president of the USA?
(To say that the 45th president of the USA doesn't exist now is not to say that there doesn't exist now a person who will become the 45th president of the USA.)

I was digging through some old threads, and I can honestly say that in 2013, the person referred to as the 45th president then was anything like the person who holds that title now.
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Re: Individuals are inconceivable before they exist...?

#778  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 25, 2018 1:20 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Teuton wrote:
Mick wrote:1. No concrete individual could have been referred to before it existed.


This is equivalent to saying that we cannot refer to future things or events. But it seems we can. Can't I refer to my death or the 45th president of the USA?
(To say that the 45th president of the USA doesn't exist now is not to say that there doesn't exist now a person who will become the 45th president of the USA.)

I was digging through some old threads, and I can honestly say that in 2013, the person referred to as the 45th president then was anything like the person who holds that title now.

Was that an edit error, Scott? Did you mean "nothing like"?
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