Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#21  Postby jamest » Feb 21, 2020 2:41 am

scott1328 wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

your failure to comprehend is not an argument

MY failure to comprehend? F F S !!!

The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.

Have a fucking word with yourself.

There's a gulf between pretending to care for some one/group for one's own material needs and actually doing so regardless of whether one acquires those needs. THAT's the difference between love and politics, squire, BUT unless love was genuine we'd have no clue to the fact either way.

In other words, love is not politics, you numpty. :nono:
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#22  Postby Thommo » Feb 21, 2020 2:43 am

jamest wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.


That's just totally wrong.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#23  Postby jamest » Feb 21, 2020 2:45 am

Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.


That's just totally wrong.

It cannot be, for I am, and I cannot be the only one.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#24  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2020 2:49 am

jamest wrote:
scott1328 wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.

Stop digging.

jamest wrote:Have a fucking word with yourself.

jamest wrote:you numpty. :nono:

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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#25  Postby Fallible » Feb 21, 2020 7:44 am

Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'?

Selfish genes don't construct morals. Reciprocity is smart selfishness.

jamest wrote:Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

Oh, late Friday night / early Saturday morning over your way... :drunk:


Almost. It was late Thursday night early Friday morning. Friday off maybe?
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#26  Postby SafeAsMilk » Feb 21, 2020 7:54 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.


That's just totally wrong.

It cannot be, for I am, and I cannot be the only one.

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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#27  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2020 9:38 am

Fallible wrote:
Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'?

Selfish genes don't construct morals. Reciprocity is smart selfishness.

jamest wrote:Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

Oh, late Friday night / early Saturday morning over your way... :drunk:

Almost. It was late Thursday night early Friday morning. Friday off maybe?

Could be that, I suppose.

Or he just doesn't care much about what day - perhaps not even what time of the day - he drinks. Whatever. I have met my share of angry/abusive drunks over the years. He comes across as one of them. Personally, I prefer people who become very happy/giggly or loud when they're drunk. Sleepy drunks are easier to bear too. Even those who turn all weepy/sad/morose when they get drunk are less objectionable. Best of all, of course, are majority of people who undergo no personality change when they get drunk.

Now, excuse me please. I am about to open the first of these:

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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#28  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2020 10:34 am

archibald wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
archibald wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote: I don't have any problem understanding the words 'consequentialist', 'pragmatic' and 'relative'.


Says you. :)

Says anybody. When you find somebody who doesn't, that's your moment to strike!


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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#29  Postby GrahamH » Feb 21, 2020 10:45 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.


That's just totally wrong.

It cannot be, for I am, and I cannot be the only one.


What? I thought you were certain you are THE ONLY ONE :pray: in a "To be and not to be" sense of also being all those "utterly selfish bastards".
Why do you think that?
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#30  Postby Blackadder » Feb 21, 2020 11:03 am

jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:


Genes that drive reciprocal behaviour in highly social species can have improved chances of survival. Try actually reading the Selfish Gene. You may learn something.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#31  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 21, 2020 11:13 am

jamest wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

your failure to comprehend is not an argument

MY failure to comprehend? F F S !!!

The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.

Have a fucking word with yourself.

There's a gulf between pretending to care for some one/group for one's own material needs and actually doing so regardless of whether one acquires those needs. THAT's the difference between love and politics, squire, BUT unless love was genuine we'd have no clue to the fact either way.

In other words, love is not politics, you numpty. :nono:

Rather than pretending to be an expert on yet another topic you clearly don't understand, why no try becoming an expert on philosophy first?
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#32  Postby GrahamH » Feb 21, 2020 11:29 am

jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:


:nono: jamest :nono:

"The selfish gene" is not a gene for selfish behaviour. It just means that what works to reproduce itself spreads preferentially. It's a useful concept but it's not the totality of evolutionary theory. Not by a long chalk. There are other mechanisms that propagate genes.

As for reciprocity, cooperation is highly advantageous trait in many species. From protecting young to herd defence to pack hunting. It's not unique to humans. You know that. right?
Why do you think that?
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#33  Postby zoon » Feb 21, 2020 9:15 pm

jamest wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

your failure to comprehend is not an argument

MY failure to comprehend? F F S !!!

The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.

The title of the book "The Selfish Gene" was badly chosen, as Dawkins has since acknowledged (in the preface to the 30th anniversary edition). The book was written to popularise Hamilton's work, which provided a mathematical basis for the evolution of unselfish gene vehicles (i.e. individual organisms) when this helps the survival of selfish genes. For example, parents are often altruistic towards their offspring, this behaviour evolves because the offspring share genes with their parents. It's the genes which survive, not the individual organisms. This is genuine altruism, it helps the copies of the parents' genes (in the offspring) to survive, but it doesn't help the parents to survive. The book title was unfortunate because many people assume that it means evolution is all about selfishness, when the intention was to explain how unselfishness evolves.

Kin altruism, that is, altruism towards relatives, is the basis of most cooperative behaviour within animal species. Ultra-social creatures like colony-forming ants and bees are nearly always closely related within the cooperating group. Humans are outliers, because we cooperate closely and in detail with non-relatives as well as with relatives, this does not happen to nearly the same extent within any other animal species. When we cooperate with non-relatives, we are generally not being chiefly altruistic; instead, we are cooperating because of the benefits to ourselves and to the people we do care about, generally family. It's our ability to calculate costs and benefits to others as well as ourselves which has enabled us to cooperate effectively with non-family, managing the cooperation creatively (often through reciprocity) so that everyone gets enough benefits to continue cooperating. Language and morality are evolved aspects of our cooperative behaviour, but they rely on the underlying ability to calculate.

As with non-human animals, there is still genuine altruism towards family, this can be extended to the group as a whole, which will probably include most of an individual's extended family. Coordinated group cooperation can bring enormous benefits.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#34  Postby felltoearth » Feb 21, 2020 10:13 pm

jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

You need to read the book before you open your yap. Your ignorance is showing.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#35  Postby Macdoc » Feb 21, 2020 10:29 pm

How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'?


if you don't understand enlightened self interest by now .... :nono:
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#36  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 3:07 am

Fallible wrote:
Hermit wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'?

Selfish genes don't construct morals. Reciprocity is smart selfishness.

jamest wrote:Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

Oh, late Friday night / early Saturday morning over your way... :drunk:


Almost. It was late Thursday night early Friday morning. Friday off maybe?

No, I work 5 days a week, including today. I told you, I'm a night owl with less motivation to contribute than previously. That's it. Some nights I can be arsed, most I can't.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#37  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 3:09 am

felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

You need to read the book before you open your yap. Your ignorance is showing.

Maybe you should read the book yourself, as your post here implies that you have no fuckin' clue.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#38  Postby SafeAsMilk » Feb 22, 2020 5:07 am

jamest wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up! :nono:

You need to read the book before you open your yap. Your ignorance is showing.

Maybe you should read the book yourself, as your post here implies that you have no fuckin' clue.

No it's pretty clear to anyone that's read it, which includes me, that you're completely full of shit and have no idea what you're talking about. You can re-read Thommo's post on the bottom of page 1 in this thread if you want a decent summary, I'm guessing since you can't even respond to posts addressing the OP of your own threads, you probably couldn't manage the actual book.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#39  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 5:57 am

Don't mention Thommo again, please.
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Re: Morality is consequentialist, pragmatic and relative.

#40  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 22, 2020 7:36 am

jamest wrote:
MY failure to comprehend? F F S !!!

The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.

Have a fucking word with yourself.

There's a gulf between pretending to care for some one/group for one's own material needs and actually doing so regardless of whether one acquires those needs. THAT's the difference between love and politics, squire, BUT unless love was genuine we'd have no clue to the fact either way.

In other words, love is not politics, you numpty. :nono:



Yes, quite clearly your failure to comprehend. Perhaps you could try reading the book rather than just the title of the book.

Reciprocity, mutualism, symbiosis and all forms of social grouping arise logically from the 'selfish gene'.

As usual, you show no comprehension of the topic whatsoever, and seem to think that beating your chest is going to make up for your quite apparent failings of comprehension.
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