On Idealism, repeated

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#261  Postby Hermit » Aug 01, 2021 6:04 am

Frozenworld wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Almost as if our senses can cross-corroborate one and other, and that intersubjective-verifiability alone provides ample reason for abandoning any credence in the entirely empty appeals to solipsism.

You have to stop at OTHER because you cannot verify that.

You have to stop at "you". as well as the other pronouns in your post I quoted earlier.

Frozenworld wrote:Also you have to wonder why our brains by default assume solipsism false: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2108438

That's an easy one. "Why do we have beliefs about the world outside our own minds?" the author asks rhetorically. Had you read the entire chapter* you would have realised that Soper's answer is "because nonsolipsism is useful".

*Soper Elliott, From a Biological Point of View: Essays in Evolutionary Philosophy, Cambridge University Press, 1994, pp. 28 - 48
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#262  Postby Greg the Grouper » Aug 01, 2021 8:00 am

I figure Solipsism is always disregarded because it's entirely useless. Even if I were to accept that the only thing I can know for certain is myself, that doesn't change that this reality which I perceive, whether real or fake, is the only thing I can actually interact with.

If I think that I'm walking through my living room, and in reality I'm walking across a highway with a sixteen wheeler truck coming right at me, I'm not going to interact with that highway or that truck; I can't interact with them, because as far as I can tell they don't even exist, and I'm judt in my living room. Even if I wanted to pull back the veil, so to speak, I can't actually do that except perhaps by complete accident, because I can't even recognize this reality which I perceive as being a veil to begin with. So who cares?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#263  Postby hackenslash » Aug 01, 2021 8:03 am

Yep. It's been pointed out at huge length and in very many increasingly amusing and ridiculous ways that, if solipsism is true, knowledge is impossible, and all discussion is moot.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#264  Postby Greg the Grouper » Aug 01, 2021 8:16 am

Hack, are you a figment of my imagination?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#265  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 01, 2021 9:32 am

Greg the Grouper wrote:I figure Solipsism is always disregarded because it's entirely useless.


Pretty much ends the thread, or would, if not for solipsists. :grin:
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#266  Postby hackenslash » Aug 01, 2021 10:50 am

Greg the Grouper wrote:Hack, are you a figment of my imagination?


No, I'm a figment of mine. Haven't you been paying attention, bruv?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#267  Postby Greg the Grouper » Aug 01, 2021 10:57 am

hackenslash wrote:
Greg the Grouper wrote:Hack, are you a figment of my imagination?


No, I'm a figment of mine. Haven't you been paying attention, bruv?


Nah. Wait, was I supposed to? Crap.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#268  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 01, 2021 11:11 am

All pronouns should be in the first person, thank you, as only I exist. Other I's are just my apparences.

I have enjoyed reading Against a Dark Background, and perhaps other of my apparences would too!
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#269  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 01, 2021 11:20 am

"But if you're God," Sharrow said to Elson Roa, "why do you need the others?"

"What others?" Roa said.

Sharrow looked exasperated. "Oh, come on!"

Elson Roa shrugged. "My apparences? They are a sign that my will is not yet strong enough to support my existence without extraneous help. I am working on this."

...

"What about the others? Do they -the apparences- all call themselves God too?" she asked.

"Apparently," Roa said without a hint of a smile... "Um, apart from one, who's an atheist."
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#270  Postby hackenslash » Aug 01, 2021 5:11 pm

:lol:
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#271  Postby Frozenworld » Aug 08, 2021 6:27 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Greg the Grouper wrote:I figure Solipsism is always disregarded because it's entirely useless.


Pretty much ends the thread, or would, if not for solipsists. :grin:

Something being useless doesn't make it less true, that's a poor reason to dismiss something. Most of what one learns in school can be termed "useless" so by that definition one can disregard it.

The fact remains that the external world is taken on faith, not evidence.

What if you're wrong? What if this is all in your head and nothing exists outside of you and you just wasted your whole life believing it to be real only for it to not be? No one has been able to answer that.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#272  Postby Greg the Grouper » Aug 08, 2021 7:20 am

1. The utility of a given premise seems like a great criteria with which to determine its veracity to me. I'm also curious as to what true thing we learn in school that lacks utility, as well as how one derives truth with solipsism as a foundational premise.

2. If we're wrong, literally nothing about our lives changes at all, whatsoever. We still interact with the same false reality. We're still incapable of interacting with whatever real reality might exist out there. The people we interact with are exactly the same, regardless of whether or not they're sapient individuals or persistent, complex delusions. That's how atrociously stupid an idea solipsism really is: it has no bearing whatsoever on anything.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#273  Postby Hermit » Aug 08, 2021 8:01 am

Frozenworld wrote:The fact remains that the external world is taken on faith, not evidence.

I don't take the external world on faith because it makes no difference to me. Whether there is one or not. I jump out of the way of an oncoming truck and so do you.

Frozenworld wrote:What if you're wrong? What if this is all in your head and nothing exists outside of you and you just wasted your whole life believing it to be real only for it to not be? No one has been able to answer that.

It makes no difference. You'll be wasting your life away in an illusion of a prison if you murder an illusory person, get caught by an illusory cop and convicted in an illusory court of illusory law.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#274  Postby hackenslash » Aug 08, 2021 8:06 am

Frozenworld wrote:Something being useless doesn't make it less true, that's a poor reason to dismiss something. Most of what one learns in school can be termed "useless" so by that definition one can disregard it.


If solipsism is true, this is false.

The fact remains that the external world is taken on faith, not evidence.


You think that because you understand neither the external world nor what constitutes evidence. In fact, the evidence is incompatible with solipsism, and only people dumb enough to think solipsism a viable position don't understand why. That's because even awarding credibility to solipsism renders knowledge impossible. You literally can't think that solipsism is true and know anything.

What if you're wrong? What if this is all in your head and nothing exists outside of you and you just wasted your whole life believing it to be real only for it to not be? No one has been able to answer that.


Holy shit! Pascal's Wager for solipsism?

Listen, genius, it's like this:

Is solipsism is true, knowledge is not possible, and all ontological thought is useless. Thus even ending credulity to solipsism rules you out of having anything useful to contribute to ontological discussion. It isn't just that solipsism is useless, lending it intellectual space and validity renders the believer useless in every way, as can be seen from the utility of the thousands of words of utter mindless dreck you've chosen to splurge all over the forum.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#275  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 08, 2021 8:53 am

Frozenworld wrote:
Something being useless doesn't make it less true, that's a poor reason to dismiss something.


It's amazing that you think you can dictate standards to other people when you've exhibited no such rigour in your own thinking.

Of course, I didn't say 'it's useless, therefore it's not true'.

I said: it's not falsifiable, which means it is not amenable to testing and therefore cannot be shown true.

In addition to being unamenable to testing, it also happens to be useless.

That you can't even render my position accurately after pages of me saying this shows you're not even here to discuss; just to proselytize a vacuous belief you think makes you special.


Frozenworld wrote:
The fact remains that the external world is taken on faith, not evidence.


False both logically and definitionally, as you've been shown numerous times in this thread - your refusal to engage in reason doesn't make reason just go away whenever it's inconvenient for you.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#276  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 08, 2021 8:59 am

It's the What Concept Shall I Steal Today thread.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#277  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2021 11:00 am

Frozenworld wrote:
What if you're wrong?


You tell me. YOU'RE the one who is bleating on about it. Why don't you explain what the actual difference would be. And while you're here, why would my life be any more of a waste either way?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#278  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 08, 2021 1:01 pm

Frozenworld wrote:
What if you're wrong? What if this is all in your head and nothing exists outside of you and you just wasted your whole life believing it to be real only for it to not be? No one has been able to answer that.


Presumably its difficult to answer a question while attempting frantically to bring oneself to orgasm, and then post-climax, such questions perhaps become less pressing?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#279  Postby Spearthrower » Aug 08, 2021 1:05 pm

Ooh ooh....

What if the universe is just a big sack of semolina and you wasted your entire life believing otherwise

What if my toe is actually the Emperor of another dimension reigning benevolently for countless epochs, and I wasted my entire life not bestowing upon it the respect it so assuredly deserves?

What if a claim to knowledge is so desperately poor that the claimant can offer no better justification than wasting their life appealing to ignorance?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#280  Postby BlackBart » Aug 08, 2021 2:29 pm

I, for one, welcome our new toe overlord.
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