On Idealism, repeated

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#361  Postby romansh » Oct 08, 2021 6:55 pm

Frozenworld wrote:
Because when it comes down to it all, the whole thing is unfalsifiable. There is simply no way to test whether the world you experience is all in your head or not.

Assuming this is true, what is the upshot? The bottom line? Where are you going to take this? Now what?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#362  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 08, 2021 8:53 pm

To boldly chart the unplumbed depths of one's navel?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#363  Postby romansh » Oct 08, 2021 10:57 pm

Spearthrower wrote:To boldly chart the unplumbed depths of one's navel?

To be fair I think FW has a point, if we take solipsism to be:
the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.
Having said that I am heavily sceptical of any idealistic philosophy that flows from this, because I cannot be certain (know) of that either.

FW has not yet said what he is going to do with this worldview, I am curious but not hopeful that it will be enlightening.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#364  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 09, 2021 4:47 am

romansh wrote:
To be fair I think FW has a point, if we take solipsism to be:
the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.


I don't think it's actually a point at all, and it's certainly not FW's point, as he's borrowed it wholesale from elsewhere.

The contention that the self is all that can be known ultimately is a belief of exactly the same category and quality as that the world other than the self can be known to exist. The exact same justifications for belief in the self are the same that would also lend exactly equivalent justification for belief in things other than the self.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#365  Postby BlackBart » Oct 09, 2021 8:58 am

Also he claims that the self is all that can be known then claims that knowledge can be disposed of for some convenient conspiracy.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#366  Postby hackenslash » Oct 09, 2021 9:47 am

Frozenworld wrote:I think there was a response to all that by the solipsists that addresses it.


:ask:
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#367  Postby Greg the Grouper » Oct 09, 2021 10:34 am

BlackBart wrote:Also he claims that the self is all that can be known then claims that knowledge can be disposed of for some convenient conspiracy.


Realists use 'Knowledge' as a trojan horse for 'External Reality', donchaknow.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#368  Postby BlackBart » Oct 09, 2021 10:37 am

hackenslash wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:I think there was a response to all that by the solipsists that addresses it.


:ask:


Solipsists!! Fahsands of 'em!! :ahrr:
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#369  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 09, 2021 12:30 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:I think there was a response to all that by the solipsists that addresses it.


:ask:


:lol:
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#370  Postby romansh » Oct 09, 2021 2:21 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
The contention that the self is all that can be known ultimately is a belief of exactly the same category and quality as that the world other than the self can be known to exist. The exact same justifications for belief in the self are the same that would also lend exactly equivalent justification for belief in things other than the self.

Here I agree with you completely.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#371  Postby Frozenworld » Oct 22, 2021 3:51 am

Spearthrower wrote:
romansh wrote:
To be fair I think FW has a point, if we take solipsism to be:
the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.


I don't think it's actually a point at all, and it's certainly not FW's point, as he's borrowed it wholesale from elsewhere.

The contention that the self is all that can be known ultimately is a belief of exactly the same category and quality as that the world other than the self can be known to exist. The exact same justifications for belief in the self are the same that would also lend exactly equivalent justification for belief in things other than the self.

But why is that the case? People seem sure that it is the one thing you can truly know so why isn't it?

ok, spruced it up - this is much betterer…



the con within a con game



as ever, our thoughts circle back to you...

your issues appear to be that superstition may be dangerous to the superstitious, and by extension a threat to society.

but your conclusion appears to be - all superstition must be wiped out.

...

do you enjoy appearing to be a heartless monster?

because for some people their superstitions, illusions, and delusions sustain them.

when you attack their irreality you trigger strong defense mechanisms that make them hate you and see you as a monster.

...

but trolls like that.

we would prefer to believe that you are not really a troll.



do you see how our willingness to adopt a simple pleasant social illusion serves both yourself and ourselves regardless of the truth value of whether or not you may really be a troll?

many, many illusions, have strong invisible social functions that people depend upon reliably regardless of whether or not they are based on truth or fiction.

that people rely upon when nearly all other people follow the same conventions...

every time you rock the boat you scare a boatload of people.

feels pretty powerful, eh?

...

entire societies and civilizations institutionalize these things to make them more reliable, efficient, and dependable.

it hardly matters if the foundations of their societies and cultures depend on superstitions, illusions, or delusions, so long as their mutually-held illusions are functional in context with their societies and cultures.

so when you go kicking down superstitions, illusions, and delusions, you frighten and hurt many defenseless people.

you have set yourself an impossible task without the sort of intervention introduced by the third reich.

...

so lets just say that you have no intention of forcing superstitious people into indoctrination concentration camps...

your methodology appears to be to confront people's beliefs head-on.

your methodology may be flawed because:

with a head-on confrontation you trigger the other person to take a reactive stance against you.

that reactive stance always results in reinforcing the belief systems that you believe you are attacking.

...

what has been made illegal for therapists to do that we do because we are not a therapist is to go along with other people's superstitions, illusions, delusions, psychoses, and lies, because to do anything else may immediately alienate them.

their illusions provide us the camouflage we need to disguise ourselves to look like someone they trust.

from there, from within their own cognitive and emotional frameworks we demonstrate our own past mistakes in life and the logic that guided us out of repeating them, sometimes using impossible stories that they reactively refute with logic.

building that reaction by repeating impossible assertations helps them repeatedly reactively apply logic.

they become conditioned to apply logic.

sure, they reinforce their belief systems, but that always happens anyway.

but they learn logic by example and then they insidiously begin to apply that logic to their own illusions and start to think things through for themselves.



underhanded?

yes.

but we'll argue the ethics and morals when there may be no better way to go.



we let other people change their own minds, we just give them the tools they need to do it for themselves.

tools the media does not want them to have.



underhanded gets them from the bottom-up, it helps them build a stronger foundation.

you way is top-down and so heavy-handed that it makes the people who are the most dangerous more dangerous.

sorry.

...

think of trying to apply force to the top of a pyramid to move the entire pyramid...

where should you apply force to move the entire structure with all of it's inertia?

why do the work of moving entire the pyramid yourself, when you can get the people who admire it the most to do it for you?

after all, it's their own damn precious pyramids with they describe their realities that they are all working on...

we’re an architect of pyramids and temples…

we’re an octave doctor for your inner being…

...

maybe one day you will get it.

but we still love you for all the help that you have been.

sometimes this deep-cover memetic-warfare cultural subversion game can really get our head twisted.

it's nice to come up for air.

oh! - and by occasionally calling us a fraud you help many of the believers to trust us more.

thanks for the lift.

can you hear us now? ... can you hear us now? ... can you hear us now? ...

...


The above was a rambling message sent to me by someone who saw wisdom in solipsism, though when I chatted with them I found out they completely didn't know what solipsism actually was and just had their version of it.

https://www.quora.com/profile/Grigori-R ... ger-Holler

Though looking through their other stuff it's clear they're just insane, especially this bit: https://qr.ae/pGxXbw
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#372  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 6:50 am

Frozenworld wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
romansh wrote:
To be fair I think FW has a point, if we take solipsism to be:
the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.


I don't think it's actually a point at all, and it's certainly not FW's point, as he's borrowed it wholesale from elsewhere.

The contention that the self is all that can be known ultimately is a belief of exactly the same category and quality as that the world other than the self can be known to exist. The exact same justifications for belief in the self are the same that would also lend exactly equivalent justification for belief in things other than the self.


But why is that the case? People seem sure that it is the one thing you can truly know so why isn't it?



Nope, FW. It's time for you to start engaging with some integrity.

As anyone can read, I challenge your position in that post above - you have claimed many times that you know you exist.

I have stated more than once that, using the same form of argumentation you've attempted to employ for solipsism, you can not know you exist.

So instead of asking me a question, or pretending that I wrote something about certainty - it's time for you to invest some effort and address a fundamental problem you keep avoiding.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#373  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 7:02 am

Frozenworld wrote:
The above was a rambling message sent to me by someone who saw wisdom in solipsism, though when I chatted with them I found out they completely didn't know what solipsism actually was and just had their version of it.


1) It IS a rambling message - and it amounts to nothing more than words. Anyone with mastery of their language can craft mystifying sentences - some people make a living out of it.

2) Again, we're talking about SOMEONE writing to SOMEONE and you presenting this to another SOMEONE. You fail to respect the essential premises of your own argument over and over and over again.

3) I don't care that some random dude thinks it's great - that doesn't counter the arguments I've set forth in this thread, which you've failed to respond to.

4) The content of this thread suggests that the individual with the most idiosyncratic and poorly conceived view of solipsism is you.


I don't have the faintest idea what this guy's message has to do with anything. I don't know why you think it suitable to present this. The only thing it shows me - something I'd already realized - is that you're obsessed with this idea, that you invest energy into this idea, and yet we all know your reasoning in support of it is veneer thin... despite the obsession and investment, you've got nothing credible at all.

I don't care what some dude thinks FW - they're not here, not presenting an argument to us - all this amounts to is that people say all manner of stupid things on the internet. For me, that includes you. The only difference between you and him, from my perspective, is that you're here saying stupid things to me.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#374  Postby Greg the Grouper » Oct 22, 2021 11:19 am

At this point, I can only wonder why we're continuing to engage here. I feel like we've been talking to a Wikipedia article for a while now, and expecting it to answer a question.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#375  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am

Greg the Grouper wrote:At this point, I can only wonder why we're continuing to engage here. I feel like we've been talking to a Wikipedia article for a while now, and expecting it to answer a question.



You should ask yourself that, as you are The One. That is, the Only One. The Only One Who Questions, And Who Also Incidentally Answers And Tells Himself He Is Not Procrastinating Even Though He Could Be Out There Conjuring Comprehensive Universes Into Existence But Is Instead Engaged In An Endless Argument With Himself!
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#376  Postby Greg the Grouper » Oct 22, 2021 1:09 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
You should ask yourself that, as you are The One. That is, the Only One. The Only One Who Questions, And Who Also Incidentally Answers And Tells Himself He Is Not Procrastinating Even Though He Could Be Out There Conjuring Comprehensive Universes Into Existence But Is Instead Engaged In An Endless Argument With Himself!

Nah, I'm just conjuring a new location an arbitrary thought-space transition away so I can visit myself.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#377  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 4:15 pm

Greg the Grouper wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
You should ask yourself that, as you are The One. That is, the Only One. The Only One Who Questions, And Who Also Incidentally Answers And Tells Himself He Is Not Procrastinating Even Though He Could Be Out There Conjuring Comprehensive Universes Into Existence But Is Instead Engaged In An Endless Argument With Himself!

Nah, I'm just conjuring a new location an arbitrary thought-space transition away so I can visit myself.



Say hi from you!
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#378  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 5:32 pm

There's a guy on YT who is "not an antivaxxer" using exactly the same style, content and delivery as FW while engaging in all the standard pseudoscientific, antithetical-to-science-and-reason arguments pushed into his uncritical mind by whatever social media algorithmic well he fell into.

Honestly, you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart in terms of both style and presentation and content of ideas.

We're in dire straits. The internet is the most dangerous thing we've ever created.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#379  Postby hackenslash » Oct 22, 2021 8:49 pm

I once found it fascinating the diverse directions people would run in by picking up Descartes' cogito and treating it as if he was making a statement about how reality works.

Maybe I'm just jaded. Or maybe FW is jaded, and I'm just the manifestation of their jadedness.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#380  Postby hackenslash » Oct 22, 2021 8:53 pm

Frozenworld wrote:People seem sure that it is the one thing you can truly know so why isn't it?


Do they? How many of them?

Pretty sure what most people think about knowledge is both largely folk-tales that bear no resemblance to a basic understanding of epistemology and mostly untrue.
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