On Idealism, repeated

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On Idealism, repeated

#1  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 16, 2020 8:39 pm

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philo ... l#p1646844

Just want to say I'm new here and I was brought here by the idealism thread, the one above.

I'm mostly puzzled by how people can assume their "mind god" or mentalism when there is nothing to suggest such a thing and that the experiences that they have which support this can be accounted for by neuroscience, like much of the mystical stuff. When presented with the evidence from science for such things, like chemicals causing feelings, the replies tend to border on incredulity. I mean that seems to be the usual response to scientific discoveries, most of which contradict our view of reality.

But looking at the whole thing, mentalism seems on par with religion in terms of knowledge. I also don't see how idealism gets out of solipsism without making too many leaps and irrational conclusions.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#2  Postby felltoearth » Nov 17, 2020 3:38 am

I can already see this thread ending well.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#3  Postby Fenrir » Nov 17, 2020 3:50 am

My only quibble is the contention that most scientific discoveries contradict our view of reality, which I think is totally unfounded.

My guess, however, is that that minor quibble is about to be overwhelmed by a tsunami of nonsense just as soon as the narcissists idealists get here.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#4  Postby Blackadder » Nov 17, 2020 7:58 pm

Are we really going to climb on the idealism train again? Circular Argument City, here we come.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#5  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 18, 2020 8:08 pm

Well I just came across it when I was browsing google and it was leafing through the pages. Lots of stuff on meditation, mentalism, and the person claiming there is no world. I just wonder....why.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#6  Postby SafeAsMilk » Nov 18, 2020 9:51 pm

Can't speak for all the others, but our resident idealist does it in a blazingly inept attempt to make his preferred deity work.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#7  Postby Thommo » Nov 18, 2020 10:30 pm

Frozenworld wrote:Well I just came across it when I was browsing google and it was leafing through the pages. Lots of stuff on meditation, mentalism, and the person claiming there is no world. I just wonder....why.


The strong case for idealism consists of starting from the premise that everything any of us knows is within our own mind. Everything you see, hear, smell or taste we all agree that your perception is simply a rendering. If reality is out there you can't experience it directly. So why assume that it is? After all, we all agree senses can be misled.

You won't find anyone on this forum arguing that case though, for what it's worth. The closest we ever come here are inept narcissistic ramblings that degenerate into name calling in short order.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#8  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 20, 2020 1:29 am

But that sounds too much like solipsism though.

Also if that is the case then why do so many idealists say that modern science supports an idealist interpretation of reality, like QM?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#9  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 20, 2020 1:36 am

But that sounds too much like solipsism though.

Also if that is the case then why do so many idealists say that modern science supports an idealist interpretation of reality, like QM?

https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-sp ... rid=uHpSfZ
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#10  Postby Thommo » Nov 20, 2020 9:26 am

Frozenworld wrote:Also if that is the case then why do so many idealists say that modern science supports an idealist interpretation of reality, like QM?


Because people say dumb stuff sometimes, there's no great mystery about it.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#11  Postby Calilasseia » Nov 20, 2020 9:38 am

You'll find that philosophy is littered with people who assert much, but establish little.

Indeed, much of the output of philosophers, even some world class examples, resides within the realm of the untestable.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#12  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 21, 2020 3:18 am

I figured as much. I was wondering if anyone knew enough about quantum mechanics to answer the link in question.

Also whenever I try to bring up materialism I keep getting the reply of "the hard problem of consciousness" or "Qualia" as if that suddenly makes idealism more true.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#13  Postby Calilasseia » Nov 21, 2020 8:03 am

One issue to take into account, of course, being the difference between methodological materialism, and philosophical materialism.

The former consists of treating material entities as usefully informative, and not bothering with asserted "immaterial" entities until evidence exists that we need to.

The latter consists of asserting blindly that material entities are the only entities that exist.

All too often, people railing against "materialism" mistake the former for the latter.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#14  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 21, 2020 9:27 pm

I'm not sure what they are referring to in this one:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... y-to-mind/
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#15  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2020 11:47 pm

I'm not sure what you're asking about that article, but I believe we share a certain impression of being nonplussed with it.

To me, he says essentially nothing with a lot of words. Nothing in terms of argumentation would be lost if it was edited down to literally just this section:
at bottom, what we call “matter” becomes pure abstraction, a phantasm. How can the felt concreteness and solidity of the perceived world evaporate out of existence when we look closely at matter?


Which poses a rhetorical question which presumes that that "felt concreteness" is something real. Of course, this would not be a premise that any materialist would subscribe to, so it advances the debate nowhere.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#16  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 23, 2020 4:38 am

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/03 ... demic.html
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/02 ... sical.html

I'm just asking what people think about it. The dude seems pretty convinced that he has buried materialism once and for all but then my follow up question would then be "how is what he is saying not solipsism"? Because his writings, especially the second link, seem to point to solipsism if everything is mental as he puts it.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#17  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 23, 2020 5:52 am

Frozenworld wrote:https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/03/the-dawn-post-materialist-academic.html
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/02 ... sical.html

I'm just asking what people think about it. The dude seems pretty convinced that he has buried materialism once and for all but then my follow up question would then be "how is what he is saying not solipsism"? Because his writings, especially the second link, seem to point to solipsism if everything is mental as he puts it.


You just published a link to someone's blog, Frozenworld. It's just something somebody wrote. No one needs to prove anything to publish a blog. What you're doing here is JAQing off, asking idle questions without giving any thoughts of your own. One suspects you have none you wouldn't be embarrassed to reveal. When you ask "how is what he's saying not solipsism?", the onus is more on you to give the 'how', instead of asking someone else to feed you the answer, as if you're writing an essay for high school.

It's a blog, for fuck's sake, FW. There are millions upon millions of blogs out there, and millions of others reciting their little turds of wisdom into a webcam on youtube.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#18  Postby Thommo » Nov 24, 2020 12:15 pm

Frozenworld wrote:I'm just asking what people think about it. The dude seems pretty convinced that he has buried materialism once and for all but then my follow up question would then be "how is what he is saying not solipsism"? Because his writings, especially the second link, seem to point to solipsism if everything is mental as he puts it.


Sure, well, he seems convinced, but I find it singularly unconvincing. The strength of his claim is wholly disproprortionate to the singular lack of evidence. There are clear gaps in the reasoning.

The difference between his idealism and solipsism is that in solipsism is that for a solipsist the only things that can be said to exist exist in the mind of the solipsist, whereas for him everything exists in a world mind, i.e. not his own mind.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#19  Postby Frozenworld » Nov 24, 2020 11:32 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/03/the-dawn-post-materialist-academic.html
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/02 ... sical.html

I'm just asking what people think about it. The dude seems pretty convinced that he has buried materialism once and for all but then my follow up question would then be "how is what he is saying not solipsism"? Because his writings, especially the second link, seem to point to solipsism if everything is mental as he puts it.


You just published a link to someone's blog, Frozenworld. It's just something somebody wrote. No one needs to prove anything to publish a blog. What you're doing here is JAQing off, asking idle questions without giving any thoughts of your own. One suspects you have none you wouldn't be embarrassed to reveal. When you ask "how is what he's saying not solipsism?", the onus is more on you to give the 'how', instead of asking someone else to feed you the answer, as if you're writing an essay for high school.

It's a blog, for fuck's sake, FW. There are millions upon millions of blogs out there, and millions of others reciting their little turds of wisdom into a webcam on youtube.


I'm asking whether his stuff is true or not. I don't really know anything about philosophy to call him on this.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#20  Postby romansh » Nov 25, 2020 12:13 am

For me, there is a chasm between the world might not be as we perceive it, to the world being a result of our perception.
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